By sifilings on
Society & Culture
Albert Mohler
Gay Agenda

“It is the Price of Citizenship”?—An Elegy for Religious Liberty in America

Discussion

Tue, 08/27/13

What’s the difference between that and this?

http://mn.gov/mdhr/yourrights/housing.html

Under the Minnesota Human Rights Act, housing is a protected area, and it is illegal to treat you differently in housing because of your: race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sex, marital status, disability, public assistance, sexual orientation, or familial status.

With limited exceptions, the following actions constitute a violation the Human Rights Act in housing when, because of your protected class status:

Property owners and managing agents, financial institutions with real property interest, real estate brokers:

Refuse to sell, rent, or lease or otherwise deny to or withhold from any person or group of persons any real property because of a person’s membership in a protected class;

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Jim's Doctrinal Statement

Tue, 08/27/13

Flip it around … how would we feel?

  • Suppose you, as a Christian, are driving across county. You stop to buy gas. The proprietor is a gay man. Seeing a Bible on your front seat, and a Christian bumper sticker, he refuses to provide service to you.

My take is that if you are in the business of serving (providing goods and services) the public, you have to serve all the paying public. Applies to the plumber, the renter, the gas station, and the photographer

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Jim's Doctrinal Statement

Tue, 08/27/13

[Jim]

Flip it around … how would we feel?

  • Suppose you, as a Christian, are driving across county. You stop to buy gas. The proprietor is a gay man. Seeing a Bible on your front seat, and a Christian bumper sticker, he refuses to provide service to you.

My take is that if you are in the business of serving (providing goods and services) the public, you have to serve all the paying public. Applies to the plumber, the renter, the gas station, and the photographer

The law shouldn’t be built around feelings, but Constitutional liberty. I might feel bad if someone wouldn’t provide gas for me (I think I would feel bemused) , but if I felt bad, that wouldn’t change his right to serve me or not I’ve been in a lot of places where it is posted: “no shirt, no shoes, no service” or “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” I think that right should be allowed them. Civil rights moving from political participation to areas of private accommodation was a kind-hearted effort to overturn a great evil – racial discrimination. It made sense because that was a widespread injustice deeply entrenched in custom. At the time, I would have fully supported it. Now I think it was a mistake, because that power claimed by the government to force access to private business has become a tool to force wickedness on people.

I shouldn’t have to rent a room in my home to a homosexual couple, or an unmarried couple, or anything else I find morally objectionable because my God finds it to be an abomination. If people don’t want to rent to Christians, I’m fine with that. Many cities and states get along just fine without such impositions on liberty.

Mainly, however, this is a matter of religious liberty, a foundation of our Republic. A clearly expressed right in the Constitution should not be trumped by any made up rights or local ordinances. Rights often conflict, and the spelled out rights, the foundational rights, should be weighted more heavily than any others a judge or a city council invents.

Tue, 08/27/13

[Jim]

One of the reasons I choose to NOT be a landlord! (See MN state law above)

That’s right, brother, and the state should not have imposed that reason on your decision-making!

Tue, 08/27/13

Back to goods and services and merchants and businesses. It’s been a long long since I’ve sold anything. But when I have I really never cared much about who the buyer was. They had the cash … I had the goods … the exchange was made .. finis!

While I have not sold much of recent I buy a lot: The drug store, the grocery store, the Wal-mart or Target, et cetera. Occasionally a car …. ever rarer a house.

In those transactions, no one cares to ask about my race, marital status, religion, sexual preference (I’m for it!).

What makes the photographer different?

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Jim's Doctrinal Statement

Tue, 08/27/13

[Greg Long]

Jim, read this as to what makes the photographer different:

http://www.russellmoore.com/2012/12/11/should-a-christian-photographer-…

I still don’t see the wedding photographer as different but since I’m not a wedding photographer I won’t have to deal with it.

Options for the one:

  • Don’t do wedding photography at all
  • Don’t do in states or jurisdictions where it would force him into a situation that would violate his conscience
  • Civil disobedience and experience any consequences

I have a conscience about weddings: When I was a pastor I only officiated at 1st time weddings - not for the divorced. I only attend weddings for the same.

If I were a plumber … I would be a plumber to all who would pay me. Electrician the same. Baker, etc

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Jim's Doctrinal Statement

Tue, 08/27/13

Jim,

I don’t really understand your cavalier attitude about this. It seems like if it doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t bother anyone. That’s not how conscience is to be respected in law.

But for the sake of argument, if you were a wedding photographer, and if someday child brides become legal here, would you just “take the money” and photograph the wedding of a 50 year old man to a child? Just curious.

Tue, 08/27/13

[Wayne Wilson]

Jim,

I don’t really understand your cavalier attitude about this. It seems like if it doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t bother anyone. That’s not how conscience is to be respected in law.

But for the sake of argument, if you were a wedding photographer, and if someday child brides become legal here, would you just “take the money” and photograph the wedding of a 50 year old man to a child? Just curious.

  • What “cavalier attitude”?
  • Re:”It seems like if it doesn’t bother you, it shouldn’t bother anyone” … I’m sorry but it may bother you as much as you wish
  • Re: “But for the sake of argument …”. Answer. There’s a lot of “what ifs”. I’m not a wedding photographer and child brides are not legal. As I’ve told my children thousands of times …. I don’t play “what if” games

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Jim's Doctrinal Statement

Tue, 08/27/13

Jim, let’s say you are renting your house. One day a man calls to ask about your property. You agree to meet up with them at the house to show them around. When you arrive, you find out that the man you spoke with on the phone brought his husband(partner). As you walk around the house looking at all the bedrooms, you hear them talk about how it would be perfect for when they adopt some kids.

You’re telling me you would feel perfectly alright renting the house to them?

Tue, 08/27/13

[christian cerna]

Jim, let’s say you are renting your house. One day a man calls to ask about your property. You agree to meet up with them at the house to show them around. When you arrive, you find out that the man you spoke with on the phone brought his husband(partner). As you walk around the house looking at all the bedrooms, you hear them talk about how it would be perfect for when they adopt some kids.

You’re telling me you would feel perfectly alright renting the house to them?

Answered above: “One of the reasons I choose to NOT be a landlord! (See MN state law above)”

I could be a landlord. I’ve had opportunities. I choose to invest differently

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Jim's Doctrinal Statement

Tue, 08/27/13

Barry that’s a “what if” question, so it won’t be answered

In my mind, “What if” questions are where ideas are tested. Not addressing them at all is just a dodge.

Wed, 08/28/13

[Barry L.]

and an active homosexual wants to enroll? Are you saying that Christians should not have seminaries or universities if they refuse enrollment to unregenerated students?

News Flash: Christian Seminaries and Universities HAVE unregenerated and homosexual students!

AND

I am not saying that said institutions should not have entrance standards

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Jim's Doctrinal Statement