Can you "sin" away your salvation ?
Forum category
The topic heading says it all. Can a blood bought believer sin enough to lose his/her salvation ?
I thought about making this a poll but I’d rather have people offer reasons for the stand they take.
Looking forward to your input.
I thought about making this a poll but I’d rather have people offer reasons for the stand they take.
Looking forward to your input.
- 11 views
Can a person be saved by no longer sinning? This has the same answer as “Can you ‘sin’ away your salvation?”
One who is saved has the promise of God, “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” (Hebrews 10:17.)
But there is only one offering which provides this, and the writer adds, “Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:18.)
Now it is God who does the saving. “… nor of will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13.)
And it is God who does the keeping, “… I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, …” (John 10:27-30.)
John states it like this, “He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life…” (1 John 5:12, 13.)
Now my question:
Does one know when one trusts Christ as Savior, when in the future one will die? No.
So if one can be saved and lost, one cannot “know” they have eternal life.
Peter advises, ” According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. :5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: …” (2 Peter 1:3-10.)
The Apostle Paul advises, ” Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5.)
Remember, “He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.“(1 John 5:12.)
John writes, “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.” (1 John 1:7-10. 1 John 2:1-2.)
One who is saved has the promise of God, “And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” (Hebrews 10:17.)
But there is only one offering which provides this, and the writer adds, “Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:18.)
Now it is God who does the saving. “… nor of will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13.)
And it is God who does the keeping, “… I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, …” (John 10:27-30.)
John states it like this, “He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life…” (1 John 5:12, 13.)
Now my question:
Does one know when one trusts Christ as Savior, when in the future one will die? No.
So if one can be saved and lost, one cannot “know” they have eternal life.
Peter advises, ” According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. :5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: …” (2 Peter 1:3-10.)
The Apostle Paul advises, ” Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5.)
Remember, “He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.“(1 John 5:12.)
John writes, “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.” (1 John 1:7-10. 1 John 2:1-2.)
The only true God is, who is, the only self evident truth not contingent on any thing else. "[There is] no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." -- Proverbs 21:30.
Thats one vote no. Thanks Paul S.
Marty,
I am glad that you are looking for the reasons behind the position that a person would take on this issue.
My Position: No! A person cannot sin away his salvation.
My reasons: Once a person understands the work of God that saves a man, then there is no room for any question (in my humble opinion). When the Phillipian jailor asked Paul, “What must I do to be saved?” Paul responds, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!’ (Acts 16:30-31). The Bible also tells us, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:13). What does God do to a man after ‘he calls upon the name of the Lord’, that saves him? The Bible goes into some detail about what God does after a man ‘calls upon the name of the Lord’. But we will skip over a large portion to get directly to the thing that God does to save him. God sends the Spirit of His Son into the heart of a man to dwell(Gal. 4:6; Eph. 3:17). Jesus Christ is God’s gift of eternal life to a man. John tells us, “This is the record, God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life, and he who does not have the Son of God, does not have the life” (1John 5:11, 12). “Christ in Me” (Gal. 2:20) gives me His life, and His life saves me. We see Paul giving us that detail from three different perspectives. “We shall be saved by His life” (Rom. 5:10). We are saved by the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)(when we walk in the newness of life that Jesus gives us—) And when we are “made alive with Jesus Christ, by grace we have been saved!” (Eph. 2:5). When Jesus Christ comes to dwell in us, He has given us His promise, “I will never leave you or forsake you!” (Heb. 13:5). Jesus Christ has joined Himself to us in the same way a man is joined to his wife in marriage, becoming “one Spirit with us” (Eph. 5:31, 32; 1Cor. 6:17).
Another interesting truth that nails this point home is the fact that all believers in Jesus Christ are made priests under the New Covenant. We were born under jurisdiction to the Law (Old Covenant). Under the Old Covenant most of us would not qualify to be a priest, because we are not descended from Aaron. But under the New Covenant, priests have one very important quality: the power of an indestructible life! (Heb. 7:16). Jesus Christ lives in us (Eph. 3:17), we are clothed by Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:27), and we are made “one” with Christ, and the life that He gives us is the same indestructible, eternal life that Jesus Christ now has. We cannot perish!
A person cannot sin away his salvation, but he can sin away his life! Once we accept Jesus Christ, He is the foundation (1Cor. 1:10, 11). Now each man builds upon the foundation. Some build with wood, hay stubble, and others with gold silver and precious jewels. The “wood, hay, stubble” will be burned. And Paul tells us,
I am glad that you are looking for the reasons behind the position that a person would take on this issue.
My Position: No! A person cannot sin away his salvation.
My reasons: Once a person understands the work of God that saves a man, then there is no room for any question (in my humble opinion). When the Phillipian jailor asked Paul, “What must I do to be saved?” Paul responds, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved!’ (Acts 16:30-31). The Bible also tells us, “For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom. 10:13). What does God do to a man after ‘he calls upon the name of the Lord’, that saves him? The Bible goes into some detail about what God does after a man ‘calls upon the name of the Lord’. But we will skip over a large portion to get directly to the thing that God does to save him. God sends the Spirit of His Son into the heart of a man to dwell(Gal. 4:6; Eph. 3:17). Jesus Christ is God’s gift of eternal life to a man. John tells us, “This is the record, God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life, and he who does not have the Son of God, does not have the life” (1John 5:11, 12). “Christ in Me” (Gal. 2:20) gives me His life, and His life saves me. We see Paul giving us that detail from three different perspectives. “We shall be saved by His life” (Rom. 5:10). We are saved by the washing of regeneration (Titus 3:5)(when we walk in the newness of life that Jesus gives us—) And when we are “made alive with Jesus Christ, by grace we have been saved!” (Eph. 2:5). When Jesus Christ comes to dwell in us, He has given us His promise, “I will never leave you or forsake you!” (Heb. 13:5). Jesus Christ has joined Himself to us in the same way a man is joined to his wife in marriage, becoming “one Spirit with us” (Eph. 5:31, 32; 1Cor. 6:17).
Another interesting truth that nails this point home is the fact that all believers in Jesus Christ are made priests under the New Covenant. We were born under jurisdiction to the Law (Old Covenant). Under the Old Covenant most of us would not qualify to be a priest, because we are not descended from Aaron. But under the New Covenant, priests have one very important quality: the power of an indestructible life! (Heb. 7:16). Jesus Christ lives in us (Eph. 3:17), we are clothed by Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:27), and we are made “one” with Christ, and the life that He gives us is the same indestructible, eternal life that Jesus Christ now has. We cannot perish!
A person cannot sin away his salvation, but he can sin away his life! Once we accept Jesus Christ, He is the foundation (1Cor. 1:10, 11). Now each man builds upon the foundation. Some build with wood, hay stubble, and others with gold silver and precious jewels. The “wood, hay, stubble” will be burned. And Paul tells us,
If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a rewardIf any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. (1Cor. 3:15)
Jim, Thanks for your reply. The reply that Paul gave along with your own is just what I was looking for ( as you will see shortly) and lays the ground work for where I wished to go with this.
Both Paul and Jim quote from the 4 Gospels, Just as I would think most christians would. I also saw Hebrews mentioned. As well as quotes from Peter and Paul. That is just what I wanted because that is just what I hear on almost any given Sunday. I hope that what follows will show clearly why I have a problem with it.
You both have offered quotes from the 4 Gospels. If they apply to us, then lets look at another quote and see what happens when we try and apply it to our question. I think you will find it fits the question very well and the answer not at all.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
When we take a look at the above passage we see someone who is forgiven, and yet that forgiveness is later taken away. Because of the sin of unforgiveness.
Can you be forgiven without being saved ? Or did someone lose their salvation ?
Both Paul and Jim quote from the 4 Gospels, Just as I would think most christians would. I also saw Hebrews mentioned. As well as quotes from Peter and Paul. That is just what I wanted because that is just what I hear on almost any given Sunday. I hope that what follows will show clearly why I have a problem with it.
You both have offered quotes from the 4 Gospels. If they apply to us, then lets look at another quote and see what happens when we try and apply it to our question. I think you will find it fits the question very well and the answer not at all.
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
When we take a look at the above passage we see someone who is forgiven, and yet that forgiveness is later taken away. Because of the sin of unforgiveness.
Can you be forgiven without being saved ? Or did someone lose their salvation ?
It is generally accepted that a parable is only intended to teach a single primary point. Looking for further teaching in extraneous details leads to dangerous misinterpretation. The point of this parable is to to teach followers of Christ to forgive those around us in light of the great debt we have had forgiven by God. At most, for the Christian, we can say that our ongoing fellowship with God is disrupted when we sin by not forgiving others. To try to apply vs 34-35 in some way to salvation steps way beyond the scope and intent of the parable.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Chip, I’m sorry but IMO the following shows the error of your thinking.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
To say that this means less than exactly what it says, is to say the Lord spoke untruth.
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
This is not to be taken as meaning I believe one can sin away his/her salvation.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
To say that this means less than exactly what it says, is to say the Lord spoke untruth.
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
This is not to be taken as meaning I believe one can sin away his/her salvation.
Marty,
This is a very good question! Thank you for an opportunity to share my understanding of the Scripture on this matter.
First, If a man has been placed “in Christ” and is indwelt by Jesus Christ, made one with Christ, and clothed by Christ, he has Christ’s promise that He will never leave him or forsake him. He has eternal life and he will never perish. He is saved. He has been justified, and he will be glorified.
And there is therefore NOW, no condemnation for those who are “in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1).
Who then can bring a charge against this man? (Rom. 8:33). He has been justified by God, justified in Christ’s blood, and the blood of Jesus Christ keeps on cleansing him from all sin. Once we are joined to Christ, nothing can separate us from Him.
Now as to your excellent question. First, I begin with the context. In Matt. 18:15 Jesus addresses what we are to do if we see a brother sin. Sometime that sin can be an offense against yourself, or against someone you know. When we see someone sin we can do one of two things. We can take up an offense against that person, or we can do as Jesus says. Jesus’ instructions are in Matt. 18:15-20. Forgive them and go to them in the Spirit of Gal. 6:1. We need to be careful about judging someone for the things that they do because we do the same things (Rom. 2:1). Instead we also need to pray for that individual. Peter acknowledges how contrary that is to our flesh. “How many times do I forgive my brother? Seven?” Jesus instructs us that we are to keep on forgiving. (This is like our gracious loving God who keeps on forgiving us and cleansing us from ALL sin—even our unforgiveness (1John 1:7).) If God is forgiving, then can a man sin with impunity? No. Paul warns us, “Don’t be deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, this he will he also reap.” (Gal. 6:7-10). When a man chooses to sin, he submits his members as slaves to sin and unrighteousness, and he will reap corruption (destructive things in his body, destruction to relationships, etc…) (Rom. 6:15-16; Gal. 6:8). Added to that, when a man ceases to forgive, and instead continues in his anger, then he gives the devil a place or opportunity (Eph. 4:26-27). The devil comes only to seek to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10). I believe this is like being turned over to the tormentors. People who live with “grudges” are not happy people, they lack God’s peace, and they have given a place to the enemy to war within his life (Eph. 6:12), and set up strongholds (1Cor. 10:4-5). The resulting bitterness causes trouble and defiles many (Heb. 12:15). The enemy sows his “seed” (LIES) freely into this life . And while a person feeds on the enemy’s lies, failing to take every thought captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ, then he is a casualty of war, versus being a able to stand firm dressed in the full armor of God (Eph.6: 13-18)—Keeping his eyes on Jesus Christ, listening to His voice, and looking for His way out from the testing (1Cor. 10:13).
(More than likely we’ve all fallen this way at least once in our lives! We were like the seed that was sown which developed no root in itself, and when the trials came we fell. Fortunately the hard things (trials) are designed by God to help us mature and grow our roots deeper into His Word. How else do we really learn the riches of the Truth of the Word of God, but when we are driven to God and His Word in our times of trials and torments? God’s kindness has a way of bringing us to repentance (Rom. 2:4). And God has a way of working that can take everything and work it out for our good (Rom. 8:28). We get to taste and see that the Lord is good when we humbly yield to God’s way of forgiveness and see how He works in us and eventually through the situation. When we take our eyes off of our offenders and place them once again on Jesus Christ, we must ask ourselves, “can we continue in unforgivenss when we remember that we have been forgiven so much?” We get to grow when we turn to the Lord for comfort, then in time we get the opportunities to comfort others in those places of affliction, encouraging them to yield to the ways of the Lord (2Cor. 1:4-5).
There is one more aspect of this. We all have to remember that everything that we do will be for “burning” or for “blessing” (rewards) at the end of this world. We are like a field, our lives will yield fruit or weeds fit for burning. We are like a building, where our foundation is Christ, and everything we do is building upon the foundation. We can build with gold, silver and precious jewels, or with wood, hay and stubble. Guess what we are building with when we fail to forgive! In the end we all have to go through the fire. The weeds, the wood, hay and stubble will all burn. Only the fruit will remain as gold silver and precious jewels. Unfortunately some men’s work is burned up, and he shall suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” (1Cor. 3:15). I do not think that going through the fire, and having everything but ‘Christ in me’ burn, will be a pleasant experience. I think that God is trying to save us from that fate with His instructions to us. And we get to be used in the process as we disciple others and help them to grow to be fruitful.
This is a very good question! Thank you for an opportunity to share my understanding of the Scripture on this matter.
First, If a man has been placed “in Christ” and is indwelt by Jesus Christ, made one with Christ, and clothed by Christ, he has Christ’s promise that He will never leave him or forsake him. He has eternal life and he will never perish. He is saved. He has been justified, and he will be glorified.
And there is therefore NOW, no condemnation for those who are “in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1).
Who then can bring a charge against this man? (Rom. 8:33). He has been justified by God, justified in Christ’s blood, and the blood of Jesus Christ keeps on cleansing him from all sin. Once we are joined to Christ, nothing can separate us from Him.
Now as to your excellent question. First, I begin with the context. In Matt. 18:15 Jesus addresses what we are to do if we see a brother sin. Sometime that sin can be an offense against yourself, or against someone you know. When we see someone sin we can do one of two things. We can take up an offense against that person, or we can do as Jesus says. Jesus’ instructions are in Matt. 18:15-20. Forgive them and go to them in the Spirit of Gal. 6:1. We need to be careful about judging someone for the things that they do because we do the same things (Rom. 2:1). Instead we also need to pray for that individual. Peter acknowledges how contrary that is to our flesh. “How many times do I forgive my brother? Seven?” Jesus instructs us that we are to keep on forgiving. (This is like our gracious loving God who keeps on forgiving us and cleansing us from ALL sin—even our unforgiveness (1John 1:7).) If God is forgiving, then can a man sin with impunity? No. Paul warns us, “Don’t be deceived, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man sows, this he will he also reap.” (Gal. 6:7-10). When a man chooses to sin, he submits his members as slaves to sin and unrighteousness, and he will reap corruption (destructive things in his body, destruction to relationships, etc…) (Rom. 6:15-16; Gal. 6:8). Added to that, when a man ceases to forgive, and instead continues in his anger, then he gives the devil a place or opportunity (Eph. 4:26-27). The devil comes only to seek to steal, kill and destroy (John 10:10). I believe this is like being turned over to the tormentors. People who live with “grudges” are not happy people, they lack God’s peace, and they have given a place to the enemy to war within his life (Eph. 6:12), and set up strongholds (1Cor. 10:4-5). The resulting bitterness causes trouble and defiles many (Heb. 12:15). The enemy sows his “seed” (LIES) freely into this life . And while a person feeds on the enemy’s lies, failing to take every thought captive to the obedience of Jesus Christ, then he is a casualty of war, versus being a able to stand firm dressed in the full armor of God (Eph.6: 13-18)—Keeping his eyes on Jesus Christ, listening to His voice, and looking for His way out from the testing (1Cor. 10:13).
(More than likely we’ve all fallen this way at least once in our lives! We were like the seed that was sown which developed no root in itself, and when the trials came we fell. Fortunately the hard things (trials) are designed by God to help us mature and grow our roots deeper into His Word. How else do we really learn the riches of the Truth of the Word of God, but when we are driven to God and His Word in our times of trials and torments? God’s kindness has a way of bringing us to repentance (Rom. 2:4). And God has a way of working that can take everything and work it out for our good (Rom. 8:28). We get to taste and see that the Lord is good when we humbly yield to God’s way of forgiveness and see how He works in us and eventually through the situation. When we take our eyes off of our offenders and place them once again on Jesus Christ, we must ask ourselves, “can we continue in unforgivenss when we remember that we have been forgiven so much?” We get to grow when we turn to the Lord for comfort, then in time we get the opportunities to comfort others in those places of affliction, encouraging them to yield to the ways of the Lord (2Cor. 1:4-5).
There is one more aspect of this. We all have to remember that everything that we do will be for “burning” or for “blessing” (rewards) at the end of this world. We are like a field, our lives will yield fruit or weeds fit for burning. We are like a building, where our foundation is Christ, and everything we do is building upon the foundation. We can build with gold, silver and precious jewels, or with wood, hay and stubble. Guess what we are building with when we fail to forgive! In the end we all have to go through the fire. The weeds, the wood, hay and stubble will all burn. Only the fruit will remain as gold silver and precious jewels. Unfortunately some men’s work is burned up, and he shall suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” (1Cor. 3:15). I do not think that going through the fire, and having everything but ‘Christ in me’ burn, will be a pleasant experience. I think that God is trying to save us from that fate with His instructions to us. And we get to be used in the process as we disciple others and help them to grow to be fruitful.
Thanks for your reply Jim. If you have an MP3 file of yourself preaching that, I’d love to hear it.
Marty,
My understanding and thinking on this regarding the forgiveness requirement, I undstand it to be two fold. First, the forgiveness requirement in order to be forgiven is under the Law, which no man can meet. And secondly as an evidence one has really accepted the forgiveness under grace, we will in turn forgive others as an evidence of being forgiven.
So in the judgment when the lost stand before us (1 Corinthians 6:2), we will indeed forgive them for their deeds they had wronged us. But but sadly that will not help them to become saved, being lost.(2 Corinthians 5:10,11, Revelation 20:15.)
This is my short answer.
Paul
My understanding and thinking on this regarding the forgiveness requirement, I undstand it to be two fold. First, the forgiveness requirement in order to be forgiven is under the Law, which no man can meet. And secondly as an evidence one has really accepted the forgiveness under grace, we will in turn forgive others as an evidence of being forgiven.
So in the judgment when the lost stand before us (1 Corinthians 6:2), we will indeed forgive them for their deeds they had wronged us. But but sadly that will not help them to become saved, being lost.(2 Corinthians 5:10,11, Revelation 20:15.)
This is my short answer.
Paul
The only true God is, who is, the only self evident truth not contingent on any thing else. "[There is] no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." -- Proverbs 21:30.
I’m sorry Paul, I’ve had a great deal going on and had made a reply to your post but I guess I did something wrong and didn’t get it posted.
I believe your on the right track. But if the Lord was speaking only to those under the law ( In Matt 18), At what point was his teaching directed to the blood bought grace believer ?
I wish to take a second that thank all who have taken part in this thread. For all that some may think otherwise, This is a question that has bothered me for a great many years. (Once saved always saved vs Matt 18 etc)
It may seem simple to most, but to me it is anything but.
I believe your on the right track. But if the Lord was speaking only to those under the law ( In Matt 18), At what point was his teaching directed to the blood bought grace believer ?
I wish to take a second that thank all who have taken part in this thread. For all that some may think otherwise, This is a question that has bothered me for a great many years. (Once saved always saved vs Matt 18 etc)
It may seem simple to most, but to me it is anything but.
Marty,
It is not “once saved always saved” vs Matt 18 etc. The Law “thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” is the bases for Christ’s instruction, “So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.” — Matthew 18:35. (see also Matthew 7:1, 2, “…with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”)
Grace is unmerited, forgiving in order to be forgiven is merited forgiveness, Law. (see Matthew 5:20, “… That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Law.)
It is not “once saved always saved” vs Matt 18 etc. The Law “thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” is the bases for Christ’s instruction, “So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.” — Matthew 18:35. (see also Matthew 7:1, 2, “…with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.”)
Grace is unmerited, forgiving in order to be forgiven is merited forgiveness, Law. (see Matthew 5:20, “… That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Law.)
The only true God is, who is, the only self evident truth not contingent on any thing else. "[There is] no wisdom nor understanding nor counsel against the LORD." -- Proverbs 21:30.
I have wrestled with the same thing Marty. Many never have the concern to ask probing questions of what they believe. I’m glad to see that you have this desire to base your doctrine on Scripture and not necessarily on what you have been taught. I believe in eternal security. One verse that helped to establish this belief in my life was 1John 3:9:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
One book that helped to establish me in this position was Eternal Security by A.W. Pink.
This is an old debate and much has been written on both sides. I know personally that it is a distressing situation, but I also know that when I went through it the Lord used it to bring me closer to Him. It’s no fun to be the rope in a tug of war, but the rope tends to get stretched the most :) Embrace the stretch and continue to ask the Lord to help the right side to win. I will pray for you.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
One book that helped to establish me in this position was Eternal Security by A.W. Pink.
This is an old debate and much has been written on both sides. I know personally that it is a distressing situation, but I also know that when I went through it the Lord used it to bring me closer to Him. It’s no fun to be the rope in a tug of war, but the rope tends to get stretched the most :) Embrace the stretch and continue to ask the Lord to help the right side to win. I will pray for you.
Many good things have been said in the comments, so I will only add a few thoughts.
1) Our salvation never was, and never will be, based on our righteousness. One isn’t saved by his lack of sin, so how could his sinning “unsave” him? Our salvation, the right for us to enter God’s presence, is based solely on the righteousness of Christ. HE kept the law perfectly, then His righteousness is given to the believer. So, the only way for you to “lose your salvation” is for Christ to sin! Obviously, that’s not going to happen.
2) Salvation is not primarily described in the NT as an object that one possesses and thus can “lose.” Rather, it is something that has been done to you by God, and there are many facets of that action (God regenerates, justifies, forgives, propitiates, redeems, adopts, seals, etc.). Once we realize the center and ultimate cause of our salvation is in God and not in ourselves, the question then clearly becomes not “Can I lose my salvation?” but “Can God lose me?” Not, “Can I sin away my salvation?” but “Can Christ sin away my salvation?” Just for example, read Ephesians chapter 1 and ask yourself what role you play in your own salvation in comparison to the role of the Triune God. Since salvation is God’s work, the loss or reversal of it would ultimately be a failure of God to finish what He started. But He which began a good work in you, [HE] will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
3) In connection with the previous point, we must think about “salvation” (the general, overarching term) also in the more specific terms. For example: Justification is God declaring an unrighteous person to be righteous. So, can I “sin away” that declaration? Well that makes no sense on the face of it. God’s declaration stands, regardless of the “amount” of sin done by the justified sinner. And this line of thinking can be applied to all the ways Scripture talks about what God does to/for the believer. Can one who is unconditionally adopted “sin enough” to finally be disowned? Can one for whom God’s wrath has been fully satisfied suddenly find himself back under the now-unappeased wrath of God? Scripture knows nothing of this kind of thinking.
To think that I could do something to undo what God Himself has done is incredible pride, and the result of man-centered theology.
Rather, we gladly say that all is to the praise of His glorious grace!
1) Our salvation never was, and never will be, based on our righteousness. One isn’t saved by his lack of sin, so how could his sinning “unsave” him? Our salvation, the right for us to enter God’s presence, is based solely on the righteousness of Christ. HE kept the law perfectly, then His righteousness is given to the believer. So, the only way for you to “lose your salvation” is for Christ to sin! Obviously, that’s not going to happen.
2) Salvation is not primarily described in the NT as an object that one possesses and thus can “lose.” Rather, it is something that has been done to you by God, and there are many facets of that action (God regenerates, justifies, forgives, propitiates, redeems, adopts, seals, etc.). Once we realize the center and ultimate cause of our salvation is in God and not in ourselves, the question then clearly becomes not “Can I lose my salvation?” but “Can God lose me?” Not, “Can I sin away my salvation?” but “Can Christ sin away my salvation?” Just for example, read Ephesians chapter 1 and ask yourself what role you play in your own salvation in comparison to the role of the Triune God. Since salvation is God’s work, the loss or reversal of it would ultimately be a failure of God to finish what He started. But He which began a good work in you, [HE] will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
3) In connection with the previous point, we must think about “salvation” (the general, overarching term) also in the more specific terms. For example: Justification is God declaring an unrighteous person to be righteous. So, can I “sin away” that declaration? Well that makes no sense on the face of it. God’s declaration stands, regardless of the “amount” of sin done by the justified sinner. And this line of thinking can be applied to all the ways Scripture talks about what God does to/for the believer. Can one who is unconditionally adopted “sin enough” to finally be disowned? Can one for whom God’s wrath has been fully satisfied suddenly find himself back under the now-unappeased wrath of God? Scripture knows nothing of this kind of thinking.
To think that I could do something to undo what God Himself has done is incredible pride, and the result of man-centered theology.
Rather, we gladly say that all is to the praise of His glorious grace!
Noah, Thank you for understanding. Thanks for the kind words, But above all thanks for your prayers. I need them more than I can say.
Eric,
Thanks for your input. You make your point quite well, But what would you say to those here who would (and have) offer/ed the following
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Along with the rest of chapter 2, as a salvation message today ? It is Bible, it is Truth. But does it apply today ? Is there forgiveness of sin in being dunked ? Or in being dunked in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ ?
Or is there no forgiveness (today) outside the blood of Jesus ?
I agree whole heartedly with your post. Jesus paid it all. But this thread is about why there would seem to be a problem as well. So please forgive my rough words, I don’t mean at all to sound as if I would in any way try and take away from your wonderful reply. As I said, you make your stand clear and I agree. But why ? Without these answers the problem remains (at least for me).
Thank you once again and thanks to everyone who has taken part.
Thanks for your input. You make your point quite well, But what would you say to those here who would (and have) offer/ed the following
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Along with the rest of chapter 2, as a salvation message today ? It is Bible, it is Truth. But does it apply today ? Is there forgiveness of sin in being dunked ? Or in being dunked in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ ?
Or is there no forgiveness (today) outside the blood of Jesus ?
I agree whole heartedly with your post. Jesus paid it all. But this thread is about why there would seem to be a problem as well. So please forgive my rough words, I don’t mean at all to sound as if I would in any way try and take away from your wonderful reply. As I said, you make your stand clear and I agree. But why ? Without these answers the problem remains (at least for me).
Thank you once again and thanks to everyone who has taken part.
Another verse that adds to what Eric was saying would be John 17:12. Christ says this specifically about those given to Him during His time on earth, but the principle applies to believers today as well. Christ keeps who the Father gives to Him as a bride. He wants to keep You if You are his, and He has omnipotence with which to keep You. If you have been predestined by God, do you think that as a man you can undue His purpose?
Acts 2:38-39 can be explained by a proper understanding of the Greek. This page can help with that:
http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/Refuting_baptismal_Regen.html
I hope this is helpful.
Acts 2:38-39 can be explained by a proper understanding of the Greek. This page can help with that:
http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/Refuting_baptismal_Regen.html
I hope this is helpful.
Noah, I have tried a number of times to make a reply. Sorry for the delay, just can’t seem to get from thought to keyboard.
John T. B taught baptisum for remmission of sin just as Peter did in Acts 2. There was no salvation in and of being dunked in water, Any more than there had been in keeping the law. Salvation (as best I understand) Has always been of God.
But the thing I believe we need to keep in mind is that if God says something is such and such a way, You know that is the way it will be. And so, look at the law. No man but Jesus Christ has ever lived without breaking a law and yet the commandments are only part of the law.
The law gave pretty clear instructions on what to do when you did break the law. That being that you went to the temple and the priest made an offering for you. Once that was done, you were covered until the next year.
Keeping this in mind, We may get a differing picture of the following
Luk 18:18 ¶ And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is] , God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Take note that the Lord did not tell the man he was lying or even that he was fooling himself.
People can and have read that into it but I believe they miss the point. If the man had been to the temple and had done as the law said, Then as far as ANY man knew at that time, He was covered.
Remember, If God says do this, and I will do this, He will do his part.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
And so we return to Peter preaching in Acts 2.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now Jesus had said to/of Peter
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And so, I believe that those who heard Peter preach and were baptised, were covered. The only question that remains is about to whom was it offered.
Here also I have had trouble getting people to understand. Again I believe they miss the point completely.
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
All other questions and thoughts aside for the moment, Understand one thing here. She cried out and Jesus did NOT answer. That is the point here. People don’t see it because they don’t want to see it.
But no matter how many times you read it, it says the same thing.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Now note that after a while, When the Lord did speak to her, He tells her that she asks for something not meant for her. There is simply nothing more it can mean in my limited understanding. Now, Unless your were born a Jew, Apply it to yourself at any time you are reading Matt-Acts up until the point that Peter sees the vision and is told not to call what God has cleansed unclean.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Pretty much the same people who have tried to tell me I was wrong in my understanding here also tried to say that the Bible did not mean what it said in-
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
These same people try and read the Gospel of grace backward into the rest of the Bible. Trying to take what is not and never was theirs. If they were correct, Then Jesus would not have failed to answer the woman. And so, Instead of seeing the outcome as the huge blessing, the miracle that it was, They see it as a test. Test or no test, How many times did Jesus speak of someone’s Great faith ?
The point that I hope I have made here is this. While I believe that the baptisum in Acts 2 did give remmission of sin, I don’t see any reason to believe that i would have ever worked for a Gentile. Until Peter was sent to one.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
The point of this is to understand why the Bible don’t “seem” to agree with the Bible. One place says that forgiveness, once given can be taken back while another place seems to say it can not be. The only way I can make it work, in my mind, is to read my Bible and see by what it says, that while the Bible says what it says, and what it says is truth, it doesn’t always apply to everyone.
John T. B taught baptisum for remmission of sin just as Peter did in Acts 2. There was no salvation in and of being dunked in water, Any more than there had been in keeping the law. Salvation (as best I understand) Has always been of God.
But the thing I believe we need to keep in mind is that if God says something is such and such a way, You know that is the way it will be. And so, look at the law. No man but Jesus Christ has ever lived without breaking a law and yet the commandments are only part of the law.
The law gave pretty clear instructions on what to do when you did break the law. That being that you went to the temple and the priest made an offering for you. Once that was done, you were covered until the next year.
Keeping this in mind, We may get a differing picture of the following
Luk 18:18 ¶ And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none [is] good, save one, [that is] , God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Take note that the Lord did not tell the man he was lying or even that he was fooling himself.
People can and have read that into it but I believe they miss the point. If the man had been to the temple and had done as the law said, Then as far as ANY man knew at that time, He was covered.
Remember, If God says do this, and I will do this, He will do his part.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Hbr 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which [it was] impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
And so we return to Peter preaching in Acts 2.
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Now Jesus had said to/of Peter
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And so, I believe that those who heard Peter preach and were baptised, were covered. The only question that remains is about to whom was it offered.
Here also I have had trouble getting people to understand. Again I believe they miss the point completely.
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, [thou] Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
All other questions and thoughts aside for the moment, Understand one thing here. She cried out and Jesus did NOT answer. That is the point here. People don’t see it because they don’t want to see it.
But no matter how many times you read it, it says the same thing.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Now note that after a while, When the Lord did speak to her, He tells her that she asks for something not meant for her. There is simply nothing more it can mean in my limited understanding. Now, Unless your were born a Jew, Apply it to yourself at any time you are reading Matt-Acts up until the point that Peter sees the vision and is told not to call what God has cleansed unclean.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great [is] thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Pretty much the same people who have tried to tell me I was wrong in my understanding here also tried to say that the Bible did not mean what it said in-
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
These same people try and read the Gospel of grace backward into the rest of the Bible. Trying to take what is not and never was theirs. If they were correct, Then Jesus would not have failed to answer the woman. And so, Instead of seeing the outcome as the huge blessing, the miracle that it was, They see it as a test. Test or no test, How many times did Jesus speak of someone’s Great faith ?
The point that I hope I have made here is this. While I believe that the baptisum in Acts 2 did give remmission of sin, I don’t see any reason to believe that i would have ever worked for a Gentile. Until Peter was sent to one.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as [he did] unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
The point of this is to understand why the Bible don’t “seem” to agree with the Bible. One place says that forgiveness, once given can be taken back while another place seems to say it can not be. The only way I can make it work, in my mind, is to read my Bible and see by what it says, that while the Bible says what it says, and what it says is truth, it doesn’t always apply to everyone.
The proper understanding of the text is that you are to be baptized because you have received the remission of sins. The article breaks down the Greek and shows how that is so. It’s like saying go receive your prize for winning the race. You don’t win the race by receiving the prize. You receive the prize because the race has been won. Not all people that followed the sacrificial system were actually “covered”. You would have to say that most all of the prominent pharisees that Christ condemned were actually clean before God because they sacrificed. Circumcision is of the heart. he is a Jew which is one inwardly.
Noah,
Lev 4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn [it] upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him
“Shall be”
Unless your reading something I’m missing here, I think you have a problem. If the people in the OT and under the law could not believe the word of God, how can you ?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Don’t misunderstand me, I see where you wish to go with the thought. But IMO your going to have to find another way to get there.
“Circumcision is of the heart. he is a Jew which is one inwardly.”
Taken from Paul. Fully correct today. Would not, could not and did not apply before God told Peter not to call unclean what God had made clean.
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Don’t assume the above to be something Paul just said. It was the truth. Otherwise Jesus would never have said (IMO) the following.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Over and over again I have heard preachers speaking on Matt 15 and saying that it means anything BUT what it says. They fail to see the ramifications of their own words. Jesus did not lie. Could not lie and be God in the flesh. So read it for what it is.
Thanks Noah, I may not agree but I disagree with respect.
Lev 4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn [it] upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him
“Shall be”
Unless your reading something I’m missing here, I think you have a problem. If the people in the OT and under the law could not believe the word of God, how can you ?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Don’t misunderstand me, I see where you wish to go with the thought. But IMO your going to have to find another way to get there.
“Circumcision is of the heart. he is a Jew which is one inwardly.”
Taken from Paul. Fully correct today. Would not, could not and did not apply before God told Peter not to call unclean what God had made clean.
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Don’t assume the above to be something Paul just said. It was the truth. Otherwise Jesus would never have said (IMO) the following.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Over and over again I have heard preachers speaking on Matt 15 and saying that it means anything BUT what it says. They fail to see the ramifications of their own words. Jesus did not lie. Could not lie and be God in the flesh. So read it for what it is.
Thanks Noah, I may not agree but I disagree with respect.
[Marty H] “Circumcision is of the heart. he is a Jew which is one inwardly.”Peter’s vision did not represent a change in the rules, but the revelation of a mystery: salvation is for Jews and Gentiles.
Taken from Paul. Fully correct today. Would not, could not and did not apply before God told Peter not to call unclean what God had made clean.
Paul explains in Romans 4 that “a Jew is one inwardly” was always true. Abraham’s circumcision was not the reason he was reckoned as righteous. Rather, the fact that Abraham was already reckoned as righteous (because he believed God) was the reason he was given the outward sign of circumcision.
[MartyH] Don’t assume the above to be something Paul just said. It was the truth. Otherwise Jesus would never have said (IMO) the following.If what I think you’re saying were true, then Mat 15:27-28 would make no sense.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast [it] to dogs.
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
Dan,
You are in a spot where it is up to you to see the truth or not, as you will. I can point something out to you over and over again and unless your willing, Your not going to see it.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
You don’t clean what was clean already. So, something was unclean and God cleaned it. What was it ?
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
It was any man that was not a Jew. If you need more proof than Peter saying so, then look to-
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Was a dog not an unclean animal ? Yet none of the Gospels makes mention of “Dogs” ringing the cross. It was non Jews.
A gentile could request and become a Jew, But until he did, he was unclean. By law he was unclean and by the words (And actions) of Jesus, we know the gentile woman was unclean.
A gentile today, Meaning any gentile from the point of Peter’s vision, Was cleaned because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
“Salvation is come” = Wasn’t there before. If you don’t wish to believe this, that is up to you. But if there is any way, I would put all notions you have aside and read the following over and over. Remembering as you do so that Paul said it.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
So, you are doing just as Noah was above. By law, there were Jews and Gentiles. one or the other and there was no middle ground. To be a Jew, You had to be born a Jew or become a Jew.
THIS IS FLESH ! And under the law, Unless you had the flesh part down, You didn’t have a chance.
“having no hope, and without God in the world”
I could have simply said you were wrong but that would only be partly right. The rules didn’t change in light of the promise that salvation would come to the Gentiles through the Jews. In that way you were right. But in every other way ?
You are in a spot where it is up to you to see the truth or not, as you will. I can point something out to you over and over again and unless your willing, Your not going to see it.
Act 10:15 And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
You don’t clean what was clean already. So, something was unclean and God cleaned it. What was it ?
Act 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
It was any man that was not a Jew. If you need more proof than Peter saying so, then look to-
Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Was a dog not an unclean animal ? Yet none of the Gospels makes mention of “Dogs” ringing the cross. It was non Jews.
A gentile could request and become a Jew, But until he did, he was unclean. By law he was unclean and by the words (And actions) of Jesus, we know the gentile woman was unclean.
A gentile today, Meaning any gentile from the point of Peter’s vision, Was cleaned because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
“Salvation is come” = Wasn’t there before. If you don’t wish to believe this, that is up to you. But if there is any way, I would put all notions you have aside and read the following over and over. Remembering as you do so that Paul said it.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
So, you are doing just as Noah was above. By law, there were Jews and Gentiles. one or the other and there was no middle ground. To be a Jew, You had to be born a Jew or become a Jew.
THIS IS FLESH ! And under the law, Unless you had the flesh part down, You didn’t have a chance.
“having no hope, and without God in the world”
I could have simply said you were wrong but that would only be partly right. The rules didn’t change in light of the promise that salvation would come to the Gentiles through the Jews. In that way you were right. But in every other way ?
Marty H,
All you’ve done is quote some verses and tell me I’m too stupid or evil to understand the truth.
Do you have a point and does it have a connection to your opening post?
All you’ve done is quote some verses and tell me I’m too stupid or evil to understand the truth.
Do you have a point and does it have a connection to your opening post?
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
Now your putting words in my mouth. I never felt or implied that you were either stupid or evil. If that is the feeling you got, then I am sorry. Just as with all the rest that have posts in this thread, I am glad your interested. But you came into the thread out of the blue offering that I was wrong
How am I to answer a post like yours ?
“If what I think you’re saying were true, then Mat 15:27-28 would make no sense. “
This thread is about why we believe we are secure in our salvation while the Bible says such things as Matt 18, Heb 6, and so on. As long as you try and take what Paul said backwards and apply it to a gentile before the gentiles were made clean, As long as you fail to see that the gentiles were not clean, You can’t see what I am trying to point out.
” Marty H,
All you’ve done is quote some verses and tell me I’m too stupid or evil to understand the truth.
Do you have a point and does it have a connection to your opening post? “
Stupid has nothing to do with it. IMO you are parroting what you and almost every Christian I’ve ever talked to has been taught. Myself included. But does it stand up to the Word ? So this is not personal sir. I would like to think you a brother in Christ. But I have been down this road many times before and I believe that only God can change your mind. If I tell you, then you think me a liar or crazy. (and you’d be right on both counts maybe) But when I offer bible, you are left to read for yourself. Then it isn’t me your not agreeing with.
Maybe this is my fault. I just don’t seem to have a way or the words to show what I’m trying to get you and everyone else to see. You are not wrong in what Paul said. But you can’t take that backwards and apply it to Pharaoh when the children were in bondage.
Think about the Passover.
No blood was placed on the doors of the Egyptians and as far as I know no Egyptians were brought into the homes of the children of Israel. ( I think the Jews were in fact told not to bring them in but not sure) So they were not covered. It was not meant for them……Egyptian=gentile
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Dan, there was a time when all men had access to God through Mechizedek. But from the time of Abraham there was only one mention as I know of-
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Until the book of Hebrews where we are told that Jesus is not a priest after the line of Aaron but of Melchizedec / k
Meaning that unlike the priests of Aaron who was for the Jew alone, Jesus is a high priest to all men.
But the children of Israel were seperate and to fail to see that is a very big deal IMO.
I’m sorry if I caused offence. I simply tried to make a point. Clearly I failed.
How am I to answer a post like yours ?
“If what I think you’re saying were true, then Mat 15:27-28 would make no sense. “
This thread is about why we believe we are secure in our salvation while the Bible says such things as Matt 18, Heb 6, and so on. As long as you try and take what Paul said backwards and apply it to a gentile before the gentiles were made clean, As long as you fail to see that the gentiles were not clean, You can’t see what I am trying to point out.
” Marty H,
All you’ve done is quote some verses and tell me I’m too stupid or evil to understand the truth.
Do you have a point and does it have a connection to your opening post? “
Stupid has nothing to do with it. IMO you are parroting what you and almost every Christian I’ve ever talked to has been taught. Myself included. But does it stand up to the Word ? So this is not personal sir. I would like to think you a brother in Christ. But I have been down this road many times before and I believe that only God can change your mind. If I tell you, then you think me a liar or crazy. (and you’d be right on both counts maybe) But when I offer bible, you are left to read for yourself. Then it isn’t me your not agreeing with.
Maybe this is my fault. I just don’t seem to have a way or the words to show what I’m trying to get you and everyone else to see. You are not wrong in what Paul said. But you can’t take that backwards and apply it to Pharaoh when the children were in bondage.
Think about the Passover.
No blood was placed on the doors of the Egyptians and as far as I know no Egyptians were brought into the homes of the children of Israel. ( I think the Jews were in fact told not to bring them in but not sure) So they were not covered. It was not meant for them……Egyptian=gentile
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Dan, there was a time when all men had access to God through Mechizedek. But from the time of Abraham there was only one mention as I know of-
Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou [art] a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Until the book of Hebrews where we are told that Jesus is not a priest after the line of Aaron but of Melchizedec / k
Meaning that unlike the priests of Aaron who was for the Jew alone, Jesus is a high priest to all men.
But the children of Israel were seperate and to fail to see that is a very big deal IMO.
I’m sorry if I caused offence. I simply tried to make a point. Clearly I failed.
Marty H,
Early in this thread it appeared that you had questions and wanted help understanding some things. I tried to help, then you said:
I still can’t tell what point you’re trying to make. You made it quite clear (in what I quoted above) that you have the truth and that I am unwilling to accept it.
What is this truth that you have?
What does have to do you the topic of this thread (which you started): “Can a blood bought believer sin enough to lose his/her salvation ?”
Early in this thread it appeared that you had questions and wanted help understanding some things. I tried to help, then you said:
[Marty H] You are in a spot where it is up to you to see the truth or not, as you will. I can point something out to you over and over again and unless your willing, Your not going to see it.You clearly are not looking for help, but are trying to make some particular point.
I still can’t tell what point you’re trying to make. You made it quite clear (in what I quoted above) that you have the truth and that I am unwilling to accept it.
What is this truth that you have?
What does have to do you the topic of this thread (which you started): “Can a blood bought believer sin enough to lose his/her salvation ?”
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
Because it seems to me, Right or wrong, (And that IS what the thread is about) That if you can bring Paul’s gospel backward then you have to be able to bring the 4 gospels forward which means Matt 18 applys to you. IE no security.
Is that clear enough for you ?
I can’t know what your thinking or what the reasoning is behind your actions, but I will flag if you make another post like your last two. Just because you don’t happen to grasp something doesn’t mean the person your talking to has hidden motives or is automaticly wrong.
Is that clear enough for you ?
I can’t know what your thinking or what the reasoning is behind your actions, but I will flag if you make another post like your last two. Just because you don’t happen to grasp something doesn’t mean the person your talking to has hidden motives or is automaticly wrong.
[Marty H] Because it seems to me, Right or wrong, (And that IS what the thread is about) That if you can bring Paul’s gospel backward then you have to be able to bring the 4 gospels forward which means Matt 18 applys to you. IE no security.Very clear, thank you.
Is that clear enough for you ? ,
So, your answer to the question, “Can a blood bought believer sin enough to lose his/her salvation ?”, is “Yes.”
[Marty H] I can’t know what your thinking or what the reasoning is behind your actions, but I will flag if you make another post like your last two. Just because you don’t happen to grasp something doesn’t mean the person your talking to has hidden motives or is automaticly wrong.I’m not sure what you’re referring to, but by all means flag away.
I tried to help and you responded with an accusation that I was unwilling to see the truth. Now you say I “don’t happen to grasp something.”
I would not have suspected hidden motives if you had said “A blood bought believer can sin enough to lose his/her salvation” in your opening post.
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
OK Dan. Let me spell this out for you. IMO, had you taken time to read the posts, you would have known that I had already addressed the “Spiritual Jew” topic.
Therefore there could only be a few reasons I could think of that you would bring it up again without talking about the points I brought out.
A couple of those reasons being you either could not grasp what I was saying or your blind to it for some reason.
Based on your words ? I don’t believe you could have read much of the thread. If you had, you would have known that I said I do believe OSAS. But my belief don’t change the fact that Matt 18 says what it says. Matt 18 is bible just as what Paul wrote is Bible. And I can not simply overlook the one because of the other. I want to know WHY.
I know what Paul said, I know it was true. But you can not show one place where it says it applied to a Jew before The Lord died on the cross IMO. While I can and have shown many reasons that you can not place a gentile on even ground as a Jew within the same time.
Now I can’t stop you from hijacking this post any farther. I did as I said and flagged you. From there its up to the mods. But your no longer welcome.
Therefore there could only be a few reasons I could think of that you would bring it up again without talking about the points I brought out.
A couple of those reasons being you either could not grasp what I was saying or your blind to it for some reason.
Based on your words ? I don’t believe you could have read much of the thread. If you had, you would have known that I said I do believe OSAS. But my belief don’t change the fact that Matt 18 says what it says. Matt 18 is bible just as what Paul wrote is Bible. And I can not simply overlook the one because of the other. I want to know WHY.
I know what Paul said, I know it was true. But you can not show one place where it says it applied to a Jew before The Lord died on the cross IMO. While I can and have shown many reasons that you can not place a gentile on even ground as a Jew within the same time.
Now I can’t stop you from hijacking this post any farther. I did as I said and flagged you. From there its up to the mods. But your no longer welcome.
I didn’t hijack anything, and I did read the thread.
As far as I can tell, my only offenses against you were that I:
I appologize for being blunt in the way I asked for clarification.
I certainly won’t be back to this thread.
As far as I can tell, my only offenses against you were that I:
- disagreed with you
- objected to your insults
- asked for clarification on the point you were trying to make
I appologize for being blunt in the way I asked for clarification.
I certainly won’t be back to this thread.
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
The simple answer is “No, one cannot sin away their salvation”. If they could then none of us would make it to heaven because there is not a single one of us who could live up to God’s standard.
I Peter 2:13—Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake…
Is there any one of us who does not habitually sin by going one mile an hour over the speed limit… every day? Well, according to God’s standard, that’s sin. Is there any one of you that is married who ALWAYS loves his wife like Christ loved the Church? It is impossible to keep God’s standard.
James 2:10—For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
I must also point out that the Bible does not teach Once Saved Always Saved either.
I Peter 2:13—Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake…
Is there any one of us who does not habitually sin by going one mile an hour over the speed limit… every day? Well, according to God’s standard, that’s sin. Is there any one of you that is married who ALWAYS loves his wife like Christ loved the Church? It is impossible to keep God’s standard.
James 2:10—For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
I must also point out that the Bible does not teach Once Saved Always Saved either.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. I Thessalonians 5:23
Discussion