Help with the eternality of persons in hell.
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I have come accross a theory of conditional annihilation. Some apparently believe that the passages on the eternality of hell do not necessitate the eternal existence of people in hell. They believe that hell will destroy humans who go there, and that there is no eternal torture. Has anybody run accross this before? Are there other threads on this topic? Is this view a fundamental problem to the gospel?
Thanks
Thanks
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I’ve heard this idea posited in reference to Mtt 10:28, that ultimately, when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire, it will consume and annihilate the soul. But it doesn’t kosher up with other verses like mark 9:44… but sometimes I’d like to think that loved ones won’t have to literally suffer for eternity.
[Susan R] …But it doesn’t kosher up with other verses like mark 9:44…i think the counter-argument would be that verse like this one talk about the fire of hell being forever and not specifically that humans will be there forever. in other words, they would interpret that section as saying that you might as well destroy your eye/hand now, because if you continue sinning with it, hell will surely destroy it later.
this idea is also called http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism] conditional immortality .
Yes. The conditional immortalist (?) would hold that hell (the place) is eternal, that its demonic inhabitants are eternally punished in hell, but that its mortal inhabitants are completely destroyed to the point of non-existence.
Is this an issue like mode of baptism? Or is this an issue like salvation by grace alone?
Sean
Is this an issue like mode of baptism? Or is this an issue like salvation by grace alone?
Sean
in Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. The Beast and False Prophet are human beings in my view. They are not spiritual creatures like the devil and his demons. Their specific sin that led them to be thrown in the lake of fire is found in Revelation 19:20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
Now one could make the argument that only these human beings will be tormented forever, but when you couple these verses with the one previously mentioned Mark 9:44 and Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
We must conclude that the torment of Hell is eternal. Eternal death is the dark contrast to the blessing of Eternal Life.
Now one could make the argument that only these human beings will be tormented forever, but when you couple these verses with the one previously mentioned Mark 9:44 and Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
We must conclude that the torment of Hell is eternal. Eternal death is the dark contrast to the blessing of Eternal Life.
Don't be a great pastor, just be a pastor and let history judge for itself.
I am currently reading Hell Under Fire, Four Views on Hell, The Fire that Consumes, and Hell on Trial. I have a couple more questions for those more knowledgeable than myself:
1. I have heard several preachers say something to the effect that Christ preached more on hell then he did on heaven. This does not appear to be true to me. Do you agree with them, and if so, how do you reckon the ratio? For instance, the gospel use of the word “hell” in Strongs is much less than the gospel use of the word “heaven”. We also have “eternal torment” vs. “eternal life”, etc.
2. The KJV uses the word “hell” in the O.T. for Sheol. Do you agree with the KJV on every use of the word, some uses of the word, or no uses of the word in the O.T.? I suppose some passages could also be considered dual use (i.e. Perhaps David uses the word to refer to grave, but N.T. revelation makes it apparent that it also applies to the “hell” of today’s orthodoxy.).
3. The KJV uses the word “hell” many times, and for different Greek words. Do you agree with the use all the time or only some of the time?
4. Fudge suggests that αἰών is the noun form and that αἰῶνος is the verb form of the same word. My understanding was that αἰών was a more general use (age, lifespan, etc.), but that αἰῶνος was a more particular usage that requires the definition, “eternity”. Is it correct that αἰῶνος is merely the adjective of αἰών?
5. I have heard many preachers say that Christ quoted the LXX, and thus put its stamp of approval on the Greek renderings of the O.T. Should I put much weight on this?
6. If 5 is true, Exodus 12:24 says that the passover is to be observed “for ever” (KJV). LXX uses αἰῶνος for “for ever” in this instance. The passover sacrifice was replaced by Christ’s death. So if αἰῶνος applies to the passover (LXX), then it could have a meaning more in line with Heb.10:1 when it says the sacrifices were offered “year by year continually”. Is this logic correct, or am I missing something?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
1. I have heard several preachers say something to the effect that Christ preached more on hell then he did on heaven. This does not appear to be true to me. Do you agree with them, and if so, how do you reckon the ratio? For instance, the gospel use of the word “hell” in Strongs is much less than the gospel use of the word “heaven”. We also have “eternal torment” vs. “eternal life”, etc.
2. The KJV uses the word “hell” in the O.T. for Sheol. Do you agree with the KJV on every use of the word, some uses of the word, or no uses of the word in the O.T.? I suppose some passages could also be considered dual use (i.e. Perhaps David uses the word to refer to grave, but N.T. revelation makes it apparent that it also applies to the “hell” of today’s orthodoxy.).
3. The KJV uses the word “hell” many times, and for different Greek words. Do you agree with the use all the time or only some of the time?
4. Fudge suggests that αἰών is the noun form and that αἰῶνος is the verb form of the same word. My understanding was that αἰών was a more general use (age, lifespan, etc.), but that αἰῶνος was a more particular usage that requires the definition, “eternity”. Is it correct that αἰῶνος is merely the adjective of αἰών?
5. I have heard many preachers say that Christ quoted the LXX, and thus put its stamp of approval on the Greek renderings of the O.T. Should I put much weight on this?
6. If 5 is true, Exodus 12:24 says that the passover is to be observed “for ever” (KJV). LXX uses αἰῶνος for “for ever” in this instance. The passover sacrifice was replaced by Christ’s death. So if αἰῶνος applies to the passover (LXX), then it could have a meaning more in line with Heb.10:1 when it says the sacrifices were offered “year by year continually”. Is this logic correct, or am I missing something?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
I realize this is not evidence against annihilation, but I’m having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that the Son of God became man and died on the cross to save people from … ceasing to exist.
Just doesn’t seem that bad to me, especially since that’s what atheists believe happens anyway.
The “Parallel Commentaries” sections on these two pages might be helpful:
Just doesn’t seem that bad to me, especially since that’s what atheists believe happens anyway.
The “Parallel Commentaries” sections on these two pages might be helpful:
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
Dan,
Thanks for the links. I have perused them briefly, and plan to give them a better reading tonight.
The “conditional immortality” (“CM”) position is actually quite different from the “annihilation” position. The CM position acknowledges a resurrection to judgment with a literal end for the wicked in the lake of fire. My understanding is that most annihilationists do not recognize a resurrection to judgment. The Lake of Fire, judgment, and degree of punishment are very real in the CM position. Christ did not die merely to bring the dead to life. He also died to save us from the Lake of Fire. BTW, I find it hard to wrap my mind around the idea that God would sentence those who have not heard the Gospel to never-ending torture. But we must not base our understanding of scripture on what we can wrap our minds around. The Trinity, the reality of evil, God’s sovereignty vs. man’s free will, and why God would die to save me from anything are all issues that I cannot wrap my mind around.
Also, the commentaries do not necessarily agree on the etymology of the words. Please especially note Vincent’s Word Studies for II Thessalonians 1:9. I may be mistaken, but I think his take on II Thess. 1:9 would be more supportive of the CM position.
Thanks for the feedback. I sincerely hope that we can have a biblical discussion on this issue. I am not fully persuaded in my mind right now, and I want to hear wise brothers and sisters on both sides of the issue so that I can be confident. What better forum than SI?
Thanks for the links. I have perused them briefly, and plan to give them a better reading tonight.
The “conditional immortality” (“CM”) position is actually quite different from the “annihilation” position. The CM position acknowledges a resurrection to judgment with a literal end for the wicked in the lake of fire. My understanding is that most annihilationists do not recognize a resurrection to judgment. The Lake of Fire, judgment, and degree of punishment are very real in the CM position. Christ did not die merely to bring the dead to life. He also died to save us from the Lake of Fire. BTW, I find it hard to wrap my mind around the idea that God would sentence those who have not heard the Gospel to never-ending torture. But we must not base our understanding of scripture on what we can wrap our minds around. The Trinity, the reality of evil, God’s sovereignty vs. man’s free will, and why God would die to save me from anything are all issues that I cannot wrap my mind around.
Also, the commentaries do not necessarily agree on the etymology of the words. Please especially note Vincent’s Word Studies for II Thessalonians 1:9. I may be mistaken, but I think his take on II Thess. 1:9 would be more supportive of the CM position.
Thanks for the feedback. I sincerely hope that we can have a biblical discussion on this issue. I am not fully persuaded in my mind right now, and I want to hear wise brothers and sisters on both sides of the issue so that I can be confident. What better forum than SI?
[Sean Fericks] The “conditional immortality” (“CM”) position is actually quite different from the “annihilation” position.I recognize there is a difference between CM and annihilationism.
But, unless I misunderstand CM (which is quite possible) isn’t the ultimate destiny of the lost still annihilation? The wicked don’t spend eternity in the lake of fire, but are consumed by the lake of fire and then cease to exist?
[Sean Fericks] BTW, I find it hard to wrap my mind around the idea that God would sentence those who have not heard the Gospel to never-ending torture. But we must not base our understanding of scripture on what we can wrap our minds around.I actually started my comment by saying that “having trouble wrapping my head around” was not evidence. I’m glad you took the time to agree with that.
[Sean Fericks] Thanks for the feedback. I sincerely hope that we can have a biblical discussion on this issue. I am not fully persuaded in my mind right now, and I want to hear wise brothers and sisters on both sides of the issue so that I can be confident. What better forum than SI?Did you think I was trying to interfere with a biblical discussion on this issue?
I did not provide those links to convince you of anything, but only to provide additional food for thought. I didn’t read every thing on those links and did not assume that the information universally supported one particular view. I certainly don’t have all the answers, and at the moment, I can’t point to any particular scripture that proves that all the lost will be tormented for eternity.
All I was trying to do was point you to additional information that might help you come to a conclusion on this issue that you could be confident in. I certainly never suggested that this should not be discussed on SI.
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
Sorry Dan,
I think I was unclear. I was not trying to insinuate that you were attempting to cut off the discussion. Your response was actually a great encouragement to me. My statement was more a general encouragement to others to participate.
Your understanding is correct that in CM, the lake of fire consumes, and the unsaved cease to exist after an unknown amount of time. The links were helpful, especially the parallel passage readings. Biblos.com will be a good study reference for me on other topics as well.
Thanks Again,
Sean
I think I was unclear. I was not trying to insinuate that you were attempting to cut off the discussion. Your response was actually a great encouragement to me. My statement was more a general encouragement to others to participate.
Your understanding is correct that in CM, the lake of fire consumes, and the unsaved cease to exist after an unknown amount of time. The links were helpful, especially the parallel passage readings. Biblos.com will be a good study reference for me on other topics as well.
Thanks Again,
Sean
[Sean Fericks] I was not trying to insinuate that you were attempting to cut off the discussion. Your response was actually a great encouragement to me. My statement was more a general encouragement to others to participate.Sorry I misunderstood.
I’m surprised there has not been more activity in this thread.
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
Discussion