Where was the "Blood" first preached ?
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It would seem a simple enough question, but I’m not so sure it is. It should be easy enough to find the answer to this question but I would look before I made up my mind if I were you.
Why would Peter not preach it if it was there for him to preach ? (Speaking of Acts) And yet what does he preach ? He preaches that Jesus Christ is the son of GOD, the promised one. He preaches a murder indictment against the Jews. And he preaches that Jesus Christ was raised.
Every word of it true, but how much of it means salvation to you ? Let me ask that another way. Where would you be without the Blood of Jesus Christ ? Are you quite sure the blood was there in Peters preaching in Acts ? Where in the BIble can you read and point out that “here” is the point that it was first preached that Jesus died for our sins and that his blood cleans us from those sins ?
There is where you’ll find the “Church” IMO.
Why would Peter not preach it if it was there for him to preach ? (Speaking of Acts) And yet what does he preach ? He preaches that Jesus Christ is the son of GOD, the promised one. He preaches a murder indictment against the Jews. And he preaches that Jesus Christ was raised.
Every word of it true, but how much of it means salvation to you ? Let me ask that another way. Where would you be without the Blood of Jesus Christ ? Are you quite sure the blood was there in Peters preaching in Acts ? Where in the BIble can you read and point out that “here” is the point that it was first preached that Jesus died for our sins and that his blood cleans us from those sins ?
There is where you’ll find the “Church” IMO.
- 38 views
“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know - this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him,
“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,
“‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.’
Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
“Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”
Jews knew what John was talking about; a passover lamb. That is Blood preaching if I ever heard it.
Old Testament: Isaiah 53:5-7 surely teaches the shedding of blood.
I guess someone could make the case for Gen 3:15 as a blood passage?
Jews knew what John was talking about; a passover lamb. That is Blood preaching if I ever heard it.
Old Testament: Isaiah 53:5-7 surely teaches the shedding of blood.
I guess someone could make the case for Gen 3:15 as a blood passage?
Luke 22:20
“In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
Leviticus 17:11
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’”
The Acts sermon is a highlight; Peter preached much more than is recorded.
“In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.”
Leviticus 17:11
“For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you on the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood by reason of the life that makes atonement.’”
The Acts sermon is a highlight; Peter preached much more than is recorded.
"The Midrash Detective"
Ed, I don’t think that the disciples had any idea what Jesus meant in 22:20, because Luke says a little later on that:
Marty, are you saying that you cannot preach a salvation message without mentioning Jesus’ blood? I’m confused.
44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, lthat everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you ware clothed with power from on high.”Even as the book of Acts opens [Acts 1:6-11] , the apostles are still looking for a literal, physical kingdom and not understanding the work of Jesus.
Marty, are you saying that you cannot preach a salvation message without mentioning Jesus’ blood? I’m confused.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Harold, You are quite right , That is what is said.. But in all you offered people were still killing animals for offerings. The blood was foretold over and over and over again. But thats not what I meant to ask.
Yes the Blood of Christ was fortold but I’m asking when it was preached that it applied to you and I.
Think of it this way. If a man is saved through the blood of Jesus, He don’t build an alter and offer the blood of an animal for the remmission of sin.
Does he have to be baptised for remmission ? No, The blood of Christ paid the sin debt.
Then why was it preached ?
The question I’m meaning to ask is when men were told they were no longer under the law. That they were under the blood and the law and works had no place.
Yes the Blood of Christ was fortold but I’m asking when it was preached that it applied to you and I.
Think of it this way. If a man is saved through the blood of Jesus, He don’t build an alter and offer the blood of an animal for the remmission of sin.
Does he have to be baptised for remmission ? No, The blood of Christ paid the sin debt.
Then why was it preached ?
The question I’m meaning to ask is when men were told they were no longer under the law. That they were under the blood and the law and works had no place.
John 6?
Hebrews?
Give me a hint.
Hebrews?
Give me a hint.
Jay, The Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remmission of sin. So the simple answer would be yes, Its not what I intended but think about it for a second.
If not the blood of Jesus then what ? Jesus told the 11 that -
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Just as Jesus did, they could heal and forgive sin. Now you might be of a mind as the church of Rome and believe that this has been passed on by laying on of hands. If so I would ask that if they (RC priest) can forgive sin, why can’t they walk the earth healing the sick ?
At any rate, I understand that the 11 could forgive sin. And for that reason I understand that they could baptise for remmission of sin.
CAN YOU ?
Or maybe you would preach the Kingdom Gospel altogether. IE believe that Jesus is the son of GOD but depend on the law for remmission of sin. But there are a number of problems with that also. FIrst of all, Jesus told one gentile it was not for her. Now you might wish to think that Paul said there was no difference between Jew or Greek BUt is that in every way, Or just under the free gift ?
It would be terrible beyond thinking for a person to work to keep the law for a lifetime and be told its not good to cast the childrens food to the dogs.
The next problem is in trying to keep the law. There are Rabi’s that are free gift believers But I don’t think your going to get one to build an alter and offer the blood of an animal for you. And the non christian Jews aren’t even going to talk about it. Your are unclean to them.
Another thing I would point out to you that I feel is worth thinking about. Jesus did in fact raise Lazarus from the dead. But where is he now ? I don’t think you’ll find him if you go looking.
When the “Church” is raised, It will be to live forever. The Jews were promised flesh, We were not. We will be raised in a glorified body. Please read Eze 37 And see what GOD says will happen to Israel.
Sin is no laughing matter Jay. It was sin that caused all this mess we find ourselves in. It is a wedge between GOD and man. And yes, I tell you that without the Blood of Jesus there is no salvation. Read the following and understand
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Makes it pretty clear in my thinking. Before the gentiles were made clean, they were without hope and without GOD in the world…
If not the blood of Jesus then what ? Jesus told the 11 that -
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Just as Jesus did, they could heal and forgive sin. Now you might be of a mind as the church of Rome and believe that this has been passed on by laying on of hands. If so I would ask that if they (RC priest) can forgive sin, why can’t they walk the earth healing the sick ?
At any rate, I understand that the 11 could forgive sin. And for that reason I understand that they could baptise for remmission of sin.
CAN YOU ?
Or maybe you would preach the Kingdom Gospel altogether. IE believe that Jesus is the son of GOD but depend on the law for remmission of sin. But there are a number of problems with that also. FIrst of all, Jesus told one gentile it was not for her. Now you might wish to think that Paul said there was no difference between Jew or Greek BUt is that in every way, Or just under the free gift ?
It would be terrible beyond thinking for a person to work to keep the law for a lifetime and be told its not good to cast the childrens food to the dogs.
The next problem is in trying to keep the law. There are Rabi’s that are free gift believers But I don’t think your going to get one to build an alter and offer the blood of an animal for you. And the non christian Jews aren’t even going to talk about it. Your are unclean to them.
Another thing I would point out to you that I feel is worth thinking about. Jesus did in fact raise Lazarus from the dead. But where is he now ? I don’t think you’ll find him if you go looking.
When the “Church” is raised, It will be to live forever. The Jews were promised flesh, We were not. We will be raised in a glorified body. Please read Eze 37 And see what GOD says will happen to Israel.
Sin is no laughing matter Jay. It was sin that caused all this mess we find ourselves in. It is a wedge between GOD and man. And yes, I tell you that without the Blood of Jesus there is no salvation. Read the following and understand
Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Makes it pretty clear in my thinking. Before the gentiles were made clean, they were without hope and without GOD in the world…
Marty, what are you saying? What are you trying to get across? You make no sense.
Daniel. I just had a friend read what I wrote. Printed just as posted here and he had no trouble following.
I know I lack education. But if someone else can understand what I have said here, is it me ?
What I said was to reply to Jay that Yes, Although that wasn’t the reason for my post, I was in fact saying that without the blood of Jesus there is no salvation.
But I also tried to show that there might be an acception in the 11. To be honest I don’t understand it, but Peter said-
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Being baptized is a work. And it is not something Paul teaches in his books. Do you believe that you have to be baptized to be forgiven ? I think that one that is to be saved will be moved by the Holy Spirit and will accept Jesus as his savior and from that second on he is under the blood of Christ and the sin is washed away. We don’t need to be baptized for remission.
Next I tried to point out that While Jesus raised Lazarus, Lazarus died again. He was raised into a normal body of flesh. And will have to be raised again. The same idea may well apply to healing. If a person was healed of say the flu, Whats to say they would not get the flu again ?
Now take that thought and apply it to someone under the law. They sinned and they went to the temple and an animal was offered. IT WAS NOT A CURE… THey could get sin sick again and had to do it all over again.
But that is not the way it is under the free gift is it ? Because under the blood we are clean because Jesus was and is clean. He was judged in our place.
Now back to what Peter preached in the book of Acts. Is the blood preached there or not ? If you say it was, then we go right back to the question “Why preach baptizum”..
My whole point in almost every post I have made here is to try and get people to see this. What Peter preached is Bible. It is the truth. But is it the same as Paul says in 1 cor 15:1-4 ?
And if it is not the same, what is it ?
And last. I keep speaking of promises made to the Jews alone that are flesh.. That is not to say that there were none made to them that were spirit. If I have left anyone thinking that I am sorry. My point was simply that much of it is flesh and can not be applied to free gift believers.
I know I lack education. But if someone else can understand what I have said here, is it me ?
What I said was to reply to Jay that Yes, Although that wasn’t the reason for my post, I was in fact saying that without the blood of Jesus there is no salvation.
But I also tried to show that there might be an acception in the 11. To be honest I don’t understand it, but Peter said-
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Being baptized is a work. And it is not something Paul teaches in his books. Do you believe that you have to be baptized to be forgiven ? I think that one that is to be saved will be moved by the Holy Spirit and will accept Jesus as his savior and from that second on he is under the blood of Christ and the sin is washed away. We don’t need to be baptized for remission.
Next I tried to point out that While Jesus raised Lazarus, Lazarus died again. He was raised into a normal body of flesh. And will have to be raised again. The same idea may well apply to healing. If a person was healed of say the flu, Whats to say they would not get the flu again ?
Now take that thought and apply it to someone under the law. They sinned and they went to the temple and an animal was offered. IT WAS NOT A CURE… THey could get sin sick again and had to do it all over again.
But that is not the way it is under the free gift is it ? Because under the blood we are clean because Jesus was and is clean. He was judged in our place.
Now back to what Peter preached in the book of Acts. Is the blood preached there or not ? If you say it was, then we go right back to the question “Why preach baptizum”..
My whole point in almost every post I have made here is to try and get people to see this. What Peter preached is Bible. It is the truth. But is it the same as Paul says in 1 cor 15:1-4 ?
And if it is not the same, what is it ?
And last. I keep speaking of promises made to the Jews alone that are flesh.. That is not to say that there were none made to them that were spirit. If I have left anyone thinking that I am sorry. My point was simply that much of it is flesh and can not be applied to free gift believers.
Ok, so you’re correctly noted that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that works alone cannot save. Other than that, what seems to be the issue? Are you saying that Peter didn’t preach the gospel in Acts 2 because he didn’t mention the “blood” [even though he points out that the unbelieving audience murdered Jesus]? Do you *really* want to try and defend that wasn’t an evangelistic message?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Jay, Lets pretend that when Jesus was teaching, there were two Jewish friends. And one heard Jesus but the other was moved to a far away city. The first sends letters to the second telling the other that he has found the Messiah, The son of GOD and that It is Jesus. But before he can write much more, THe first boy dies.
Now, years later the second boy who is an old man now is living in ROme and hears a man named Paul speaking of Jesus. He hears and is moved to accept Jesus as Lord and savior. THen this man dies also.
Then comes the day that Jesus steps out to call and the second person rises to meet Christ in the air but can not find his friend anywhere.
Later he learns his friend is alive again on earth. Eating, sleeping, raising a family and doing so in a body like Adam had before the fall. Likely to live to a ripe old age of near 1000 years. But he will die again And he will be judged by his works.
While the second is with Jesus, In a glorified body never to die.
Now that was nothing but a story to put you in mind of the way I see things. You are free to search the WORD and see if it allows you to see things that way or not. A good place to start would be John 3. When Jesus talks to Nicodemus.
Jhn 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
What “earthly things did Jesus tell him ?
Now some here will not agree with the idea I have tried to present. And I have no doubt that it has been pretty poorly offered. Agree or not, All are welcome to speak out on how they believe and why. If I am wrong, I want to be the first to know it.
And I’m not just making a bold statement here. There is much I do not know. Later on in the book of Acts we find the following. -
Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
But the question here is can YOU tell me for sure that this was a salvation msg and not a “Kingdom” msg ?
Les Feldick says something that makes a lot of sense too me. That at some point in time ( He thinks that with the stoning of Stephen, That the Kingdom gospel was put on hold just as if you hit the “pause” button on a DVD player. And the the “Times of the gentiles” started. And the Times of the gentiles being the “free gift” or “Paul’s gospel”.
Now at the end of the “Times of the gentiles” will be the rapture. And the “Free gift” will no longer be free. The Jews as a nation will see what has happened and KNOW what GOD has done.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But the time will by then be past for accepting the free gift..What will they have ? THe “Pause” button will be released and the “Kingdom” gospel will start up again. But now the Jews will know that GOD has made the gentile clean and they can take the gospel msg to all the world. This being the Great Commission. ( Where they will heal and raise the dead and preach just as The LORD JESUS had commanded them. And it will all fit.
No more questions about Mat 18: 23 where the servant was forgiven and failed to forgive. That the “Forgiveness” was taken from him and he was cast in prison is no longer a block to once saved always saved. BECAUSE it would then be understood to be speaking of FLESH, not spirit.
You would also understand WHY Jesus said “Go not in the way of the gentiles” Because what they KNEW to preach was not meant for them/us at that time.. Although I must say that the simple fact that we KNOW Jesus said it should have been enough. The fact that the 11 NEVER carried out the great commission should have been a huge clue. ( Please remember that they passed the ball to Paul and Paul did not preach the Kingdom ) They remained with the Jews.
Now, years later the second boy who is an old man now is living in ROme and hears a man named Paul speaking of Jesus. He hears and is moved to accept Jesus as Lord and savior. THen this man dies also.
Then comes the day that Jesus steps out to call and the second person rises to meet Christ in the air but can not find his friend anywhere.
Later he learns his friend is alive again on earth. Eating, sleeping, raising a family and doing so in a body like Adam had before the fall. Likely to live to a ripe old age of near 1000 years. But he will die again And he will be judged by his works.
While the second is with Jesus, In a glorified body never to die.
Now that was nothing but a story to put you in mind of the way I see things. You are free to search the WORD and see if it allows you to see things that way or not. A good place to start would be John 3. When Jesus talks to Nicodemus.
Jhn 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Jhn 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly things?
What “earthly things did Jesus tell him ?
Now some here will not agree with the idea I have tried to present. And I have no doubt that it has been pretty poorly offered. Agree or not, All are welcome to speak out on how they believe and why. If I am wrong, I want to be the first to know it.
And I’m not just making a bold statement here. There is much I do not know. Later on in the book of Acts we find the following. -
Act 10:44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
But the question here is can YOU tell me for sure that this was a salvation msg and not a “Kingdom” msg ?
Les Feldick says something that makes a lot of sense too me. That at some point in time ( He thinks that with the stoning of Stephen, That the Kingdom gospel was put on hold just as if you hit the “pause” button on a DVD player. And the the “Times of the gentiles” started. And the Times of the gentiles being the “free gift” or “Paul’s gospel”.
Now at the end of the “Times of the gentiles” will be the rapture. And the “Free gift” will no longer be free. The Jews as a nation will see what has happened and KNOW what GOD has done.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But the time will by then be past for accepting the free gift..What will they have ? THe “Pause” button will be released and the “Kingdom” gospel will start up again. But now the Jews will know that GOD has made the gentile clean and they can take the gospel msg to all the world. This being the Great Commission. ( Where they will heal and raise the dead and preach just as The LORD JESUS had commanded them. And it will all fit.
No more questions about Mat 18: 23 where the servant was forgiven and failed to forgive. That the “Forgiveness” was taken from him and he was cast in prison is no longer a block to once saved always saved. BECAUSE it would then be understood to be speaking of FLESH, not spirit.
You would also understand WHY Jesus said “Go not in the way of the gentiles” Because what they KNEW to preach was not meant for them/us at that time.. Although I must say that the simple fact that we KNOW Jesus said it should have been enough. The fact that the 11 NEVER carried out the great commission should have been a huge clue. ( Please remember that they passed the ball to Paul and Paul did not preach the Kingdom ) They remained with the Jews.
Harold, I could only make a guess and say that it was Paul himself…
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
I am sorry to have taken so long to reply. I could not even start to try and explain to you the hours I have spent trying to make that last reply to Jay . Forgive me brother, I do not mean to be rude.
1Ti 1:15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
I am sorry to have taken so long to reply. I could not even start to try and explain to you the hours I have spent trying to make that last reply to Jay . Forgive me brother, I do not mean to be rude.
But the question here is can YOU tell me for sure that this was a salvation msg and not a “Kingdom” msg ?Marty, a quick reply and then I’m done with this thread. You referred to Acts 10:44, which tells us that the audience of Pere’s message had “the Holy Ghost f[a] ll on all them which heard the word.” and that other bystanders “were astonished…because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. “
If you want to argue that these people were unregenerate, then how on Earth did they get the Spirit to dwell within them? Does the Spirit indwell unbelievers apart from a repentant sinner?
Also, I noticed that you sidestepped the context of the passage you quoted from. If you want to talk about Peter’s preaching, then you ought to at least look at what he preached, namely:
[Acts 10:34-43] So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all), you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”So I think that you err when you try and preach what seems to be two completely different gospel messages.
I’m going to bow out of the discussion now.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
Jay, I’m sorry you feel that way. I’m also sorry that I am so weak in words that you are still thinking I am speaking of another gospel. There is only one Lord Jesus Christ and only one gospel.
[Marty H] Jay, Lets pretend that when Jesus was teaching, there were two Jewish friends. And one heard Jesus but the other was moved to a far away city. The first sends letters to the second telling the other that he has found the Messiah, The son of GOD and that It is Jesus. But before he can write much more, THe first boy dies.Marty,
Now, years later the second boy who is an old man now is living in ROme and hears a man named Paul speaking of Jesus. He hears and is moved to accept Jesus as Lord and savior. THen this man dies also.
Then comes the day that Jesus steps out to call and the second person rises to meet Christ in the air but can not find his friend anywhere.
Later he learns his friend is alive again on earth. Eating, sleeping, raising a family and doing so in a body like Adam had before the fall. Likely to live to a ripe old age of near 1000 years. But he will die again And he will be judged by his works.
Your scenario is implausible and in fact not possible. I understand you believe in one gospel and here your distinction isn’t separate gospels, rather alleged dispensational distinctions and and protocols of God for varying people at varying times with one gospel always. The problem, Marty, is that while it is true God has differing protocol for varying peoples at varying times (i.e. the Age of the Gentiles, The Age of Israel, The Age of the Hypostatic Union, The Church Age etc) while there remains constantly “one Lord Jesus Christ and only one gospel” (as you have stated with assurance you believe) the kind of distinction and operation you are suggesting goes far beyond dispensational features to a misinterpretation and misapplication of the several bible themes and doctrines.
And here is what I mean specifically. If the first man in your story found Jesus and received him as the Messiah, the son of God that man has indeed been born from above. He has exercised his faith and believed. He is no different than the other person who later believed on Christ as well and no different that Adam, our first father who believe on Christ though his faith was in primitive expressions of a gospel now revealed fully to us. In the end all who believe the gospel as revealed during their age, are saved. Their eternal state is determined at that point. The concept that the first man would be found in a human body living a second life is foreign to what is presented in Scripture.
Yes there are references to millennial phenomena in Scripture, one being long life, but those long lives are not going to be lived by people who previously lived and died on earth, those people are with all believers of all ages whose bodies are are recalled, for their transformation into glorification at the resurrection.
Marty, do you mean the man in the Millennium will be judged by works to decide his eternal state? The idea that anyone at any time - pre-Christ, now, or Millennial - will be judged by works (for salvation) is heterodox. It is a denial of a core tenet of the Protestant faith, that works done by any human anywhere at any time have the possibility to merit acceptance before God.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
Alex, Thanks for taking the time to offer what you have and for making it so clear. It will take a bit for me to give thought to all you have said but believe me, I will give it my best.
I would ask though that you take a look at Eze 37. While I understand that it speaks of Israel becoming a nation once again and the people being brought back from out of the other nations and of Israel no longer being divided.. And yet the language is pretty strong about the graves being opened etc.
Charlie, Give me a little time to work with what Alex has offered and I’ll try and get back.
I would ask though that you take a look at Eze 37. While I understand that it speaks of Israel becoming a nation once again and the people being brought back from out of the other nations and of Israel no longer being divided.. And yet the language is pretty strong about the graves being opened etc.
Charlie, Give me a little time to work with what Alex has offered and I’ll try and get back.
Hello all, I’m sorry I have been so long getting back here. I have had a great deal to think on, Not only about this thread.
Alex,
Eze 37:1 ¶ The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which [was] full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, [there were] very many in the open valley; and, lo, [they were] very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.
Eze 37:7 ¶ So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but [there was] no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it] , and performed [it] , saith the LORD.
Eze 37:15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 ¶ And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
As I said before, I feel sure that at least part of this is speaking of Israel becoming a nation once again. But what of the rest ?
Charlie and some of the others may wish to have a look at the following and ask yourself a question or two.
Dan 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
I would like to ask that you all to pay close attention to a couple of things here. For one thing, It says “Many” It does not say all. Some to everlasting life, what do the shamed get ? And what of those that were not raised ?…….Just how many judgments are there ? Just how many “Raptures” are there ? Will the unjust be raised when the “Dead in Christ” shall rise ?
And then we have this…
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Any thoughts ?
Alex,
Eze 37:1 ¶ The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which [was] full of bones,
Eze 37:2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, [there were] very many in the open valley; and, lo, [they were] very dry.
Eze 37:3 And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.
Eze 37:4 Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I [am] the LORD.
Eze 37:7 ¶ So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
Eze 37:8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but [there was] no breath in them.
Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
Eze 37:10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
Eze 37:11 ¶ Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Eze 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it] , and performed [it] , saith the LORD.
Eze 37:15 ¶ The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 ¶ And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou [meanest] by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Eze 37:20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
Eze 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 ¶ And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, [even] they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David [shall be] their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
As I said before, I feel sure that at least part of this is speaking of Israel becoming a nation once again. But what of the rest ?
Charlie and some of the others may wish to have a look at the following and ask yourself a question or two.
Dan 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
I would like to ask that you all to pay close attention to a couple of things here. For one thing, It says “Many” It does not say all. Some to everlasting life, what do the shamed get ? And what of those that were not raised ?…….Just how many judgments are there ? Just how many “Raptures” are there ? Will the unjust be raised when the “Dead in Christ” shall rise ?
And then we have this…
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Any thoughts ?
For some reason this thread didn’t move up in que after last post.
Discussion