Laws regarding pastors who spiritually abuse
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I apologize if I have put this in the wrong forum, I was unsure which forum I should put this in.
I realize this could vary from state to state, country to country, but I am wondering if anyone knows of possible criminal laws in place for those people who have suffered spiritual abuse by a pastor? If a pastor betrays and ambushes a person, are there laws against this? Or is this a matter that can only be dealt with from the church level?
Thank you in advance for you help.
Carol
I realize this could vary from state to state, country to country, but I am wondering if anyone knows of possible criminal laws in place for those people who have suffered spiritual abuse by a pastor? If a pastor betrays and ambushes a person, are there laws against this? Or is this a matter that can only be dealt with from the church level?
Thank you in advance for you help.
Carol
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For the purposes of this discussion, what does the term ‘spiritual abuse’ mean? I’m not sure I understand how a pastor can “betray and ambush” someone… unless you mean that they’ve disclosed information told to them in confidence and used it in some way?
Off the top of my head, I would say that there are laws on the books that would apply to situations labeled as ‘spiritual abuse’.
For instance, a verbal or written threat to do bodily harm, destroy property, or anything “which is maliciously intended to substantially harm the person threatened or another with respect to his or her physical or mental health or safety” and a “reasonable fear that the threat will be carried out”.
There are ‘breach of confidence’ laws that might apply to information disclosed to the pastor in private. I would also research statutes prohibiting coercion, extortion, stalking, and defamation of character. These apply regardless of the when, where, who- churches are not immune to the law.
Off the top of my head, I would say that there are laws on the books that would apply to situations labeled as ‘spiritual abuse’.
For instance, a verbal or written threat to do bodily harm, destroy property, or anything “which is maliciously intended to substantially harm the person threatened or another with respect to his or her physical or mental health or safety” and a “reasonable fear that the threat will be carried out”.
There are ‘breach of confidence’ laws that might apply to information disclosed to the pastor in private. I would also research statutes prohibiting coercion, extortion, stalking, and defamation of character. These apply regardless of the when, where, who- churches are not immune to the law.
Trying to define…..
Let me see if I can give the situation clarity with details. A pastor agreed upon a counseling session between 4 people. Two other people (a couple) are involved and major players into destructive behavior and unbiblical beliefs, but they were not allowed to be at the counseling session, due to trust issues that have been violate over several months. A mediator for one side plus the pastor are to conduct the session. It was agreed upon at the time of the arrangement of the meeting, the two people not allowed to the meeting, might get a meeting with all parties, the following day, based on how this initial meeting played out. Again, it had been stressed many times over, due to mistrust and lies that had taken place over the previous months, this couple could not be allowed to this first meeting allowing for trust to be built up among the pastor and the parties in the room. All parties were in agreement of this arrangement.
Moments before all parties arrived to the meeting, the pastor discloses to the mediator what he is about to do. He tells the mediator he has invited the other couple to the meeting and they will be asked to come in, part way through the meeting. The mediator told the pastor this would be seen as an act of betrayal, to which he ignored. The meeting went on for about an hour when the pastor stood up and said he had invited the couple to come to the meeting and he was going to bring them in. He did not ask to bring them in, he was forcing the meeting upon the other parties in the room against their agreed upon arrangement.
The two people in the room who had been violated by this couple, now being brought into room, told the pastor “no”. They immediately got up and told the pastor that was betrayal and unethical. The pastor proceeded to bring the couple into the room. At that point, the other two parties left, feeling violated that a pastor would stoop to such tactics.
One man in the room has called this act ‘psychological rape’. One of the people in the room had already been physically unwell, due to the stresses of the situation.
Are there any criminal laws involving ‘counselors’ that would apply to this pastor? Again, I realize this will be different from place to place, but I am wondering how one searches out the criminal aspect of this and who these people can go to for legal advice if there is such a thing. Or, do these people have to chalk it up to an unethical pastor and walk away with all that comes from betrayal of a person who is call ‘a man of God’ and a person who has spiritual authority over many sheep. The pastor in question is into his 60’s, well seasoned. He knew what he was doing.
Does that give better clarity?
Thanks again,
Carol
Let me see if I can give the situation clarity with details. A pastor agreed upon a counseling session between 4 people. Two other people (a couple) are involved and major players into destructive behavior and unbiblical beliefs, but they were not allowed to be at the counseling session, due to trust issues that have been violate over several months. A mediator for one side plus the pastor are to conduct the session. It was agreed upon at the time of the arrangement of the meeting, the two people not allowed to the meeting, might get a meeting with all parties, the following day, based on how this initial meeting played out. Again, it had been stressed many times over, due to mistrust and lies that had taken place over the previous months, this couple could not be allowed to this first meeting allowing for trust to be built up among the pastor and the parties in the room. All parties were in agreement of this arrangement.
Moments before all parties arrived to the meeting, the pastor discloses to the mediator what he is about to do. He tells the mediator he has invited the other couple to the meeting and they will be asked to come in, part way through the meeting. The mediator told the pastor this would be seen as an act of betrayal, to which he ignored. The meeting went on for about an hour when the pastor stood up and said he had invited the couple to come to the meeting and he was going to bring them in. He did not ask to bring them in, he was forcing the meeting upon the other parties in the room against their agreed upon arrangement.
The two people in the room who had been violated by this couple, now being brought into room, told the pastor “no”. They immediately got up and told the pastor that was betrayal and unethical. The pastor proceeded to bring the couple into the room. At that point, the other two parties left, feeling violated that a pastor would stoop to such tactics.
One man in the room has called this act ‘psychological rape’. One of the people in the room had already been physically unwell, due to the stresses of the situation.
Are there any criminal laws involving ‘counselors’ that would apply to this pastor? Again, I realize this will be different from place to place, but I am wondering how one searches out the criminal aspect of this and who these people can go to for legal advice if there is such a thing. Or, do these people have to chalk it up to an unethical pastor and walk away with all that comes from betrayal of a person who is call ‘a man of God’ and a person who has spiritual authority over many sheep. The pastor in question is into his 60’s, well seasoned. He knew what he was doing.
Does that give better clarity?
Thanks again,
Carol
This situation IMO should come before witnesses and the church first. I can’t imagine that one could bring legitimate criminal charges against the pastor. What he did was dishonest and unethical- but illegal? Was there a breach of confidence? An intent to cause distress or harm? It doesn’t seem like that any charges would stick. In any case, I think Scriptural principle precludes going to secular law as a first option in a situation like this.
I’m also not a big supporter of overwrought phrases such as “psychological rape”. As an adult, when someone in leadership exercises bad judgment, I would talk to them about it. If they are unresponsive, then I would follow Mtt. 18 and go to them with a witness. (my husband would obviously be the one taking care of all this- I’m using “I” generically). If the situation isn’t going to be resolved, I’d remove myself from that authority. I’d certainly not continue to attend where people are so lacking in integrity that it literally makes me sick.
The problem with abuse is that the abuser only has power as long as the abusee hangs around and takes it. If you have it within you to take it without breaking in order to try to reach a satisfactory resolution, then by all means- hop in for the long haul. But it’s important to know one’s limitations, and if the situation is escalating to the point where you are affected spiritually, mentally, and physically- get outta’ there… perhaps revisit the situation when you’ve had time to recover and gain some perspective. There’s nothing ‘unspiritual’ about that.
I’m also not a big supporter of overwrought phrases such as “psychological rape”. As an adult, when someone in leadership exercises bad judgment, I would talk to them about it. If they are unresponsive, then I would follow Mtt. 18 and go to them with a witness. (my husband would obviously be the one taking care of all this- I’m using “I” generically). If the situation isn’t going to be resolved, I’d remove myself from that authority. I’d certainly not continue to attend where people are so lacking in integrity that it literally makes me sick.
The problem with abuse is that the abuser only has power as long as the abusee hangs around and takes it. If you have it within you to take it without breaking in order to try to reach a satisfactory resolution, then by all means- hop in for the long haul. But it’s important to know one’s limitations, and if the situation is escalating to the point where you are affected spiritually, mentally, and physically- get outta’ there… perhaps revisit the situation when you’ve had time to recover and gain some perspective. There’s nothing ‘unspiritual’ about that.
Thanks for the interaction, Susan.
I was aiming at trying to see if there is a ‘legal’ angle here because I would suspect if legal charges could be made, then this could be made public, which would then bring the situation to light for the other members of the congregation. Why? Because when a pastor of this age and length in this position as pastor has done this in this circumstance, there is a very real possibility he has done this to others in the church. I know ‘criminal’ was a stretch, but I was hoping for something along these lines, allowing for this to be made public. I was hoping there were laws with respect to counselors that would apply to this case.
I agree on the ‘method’ Matt. 18, except in this case, you have the pastor wheeling the stick. It was brought before another pastor in the church, it appears the other pastor is covering his back side, and in the process telling untruths.
I also agree with your statement with abuse and power.
Is there a biblical obligation for these people to pursue this issue, in the hopes of exposing this pastor’s methods, with the desired end that if he has done this to others, they come forward and that this pastor cannot do this in the future? It’s the old bully thing….the pastor bullies people until someone puts a stop to it.
I was hoping for a legal angle to help with this since Biblical methods have not worked.
Does anyone have any other suggestions or thoughts on how to deal with this? Again, another pastor was contacted and given the details, but supports the other pastor, knowing of the behavior and circumstances.
Thanks again,
Carol
I was aiming at trying to see if there is a ‘legal’ angle here because I would suspect if legal charges could be made, then this could be made public, which would then bring the situation to light for the other members of the congregation. Why? Because when a pastor of this age and length in this position as pastor has done this in this circumstance, there is a very real possibility he has done this to others in the church. I know ‘criminal’ was a stretch, but I was hoping for something along these lines, allowing for this to be made public. I was hoping there were laws with respect to counselors that would apply to this case.
I agree on the ‘method’ Matt. 18, except in this case, you have the pastor wheeling the stick. It was brought before another pastor in the church, it appears the other pastor is covering his back side, and in the process telling untruths.
I also agree with your statement with abuse and power.
Is there a biblical obligation for these people to pursue this issue, in the hopes of exposing this pastor’s methods, with the desired end that if he has done this to others, they come forward and that this pastor cannot do this in the future? It’s the old bully thing….the pastor bullies people until someone puts a stop to it.
I was hoping for a legal angle to help with this since Biblical methods have not worked.
Does anyone have any other suggestions or thoughts on how to deal with this? Again, another pastor was contacted and given the details, but supports the other pastor, knowing of the behavior and circumstances.
Thanks again,
Carol
I agree with Susan that there’s probably no law keeping him from jail, but I do think that this probably is a outward symptom of a guy who probably shouldn’t be in ministry. The fact that a neutral arbiter is involved, that he lied to the families involved, that he overrode their objections…all of this indicates to me that there’s other problems there than just this specific incident.
You said:
What is your church’s polity and structure? Is it a Pastor-run church?
You said:
I agree on the ‘method’ Matt. 18, except in this case, you have the pastor wheeling the stick. It was brought before another pastor in the church, it appears the other pastor is covering his back side, and in the process telling untruths.Yes, there is a Biblical obligation for the congregation to pursue this matter, simply because it’s a SIN issue. He is not acting as a shepherd who it trying to push people towards Christlikeness. If what you say is true, then they (both pastors) ought to be confronted about what happened, and that’s the role the your churches’ board of deacons / board of elders need to take. I’m guessing now, but I think that probably won’t work either; I suspect that the board is stacked with his friends and “back watchers” as well.
I also agree with your statement with abuse and power.
Is there a biblical obligation for these people to pursue this issue, in the hopes of exposing this pastor’s methods, with the desired end that if he has done this to others, they come forward and that this pastor cannot do this in the future? It’s the old bully thing….the pastor bullies people until someone puts a stop to it.
What is your church’s polity and structure? Is it a Pastor-run church?
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay C.] Yes, there is a Biblical obligation for the congregation to pursue this matter, simply because it’s a SIN issue. He is not acting as a shepherd who it trying to push people towards Christlikeness. If what you say is true, then they (both pastors) ought to be confronted about what happened, and that’s the role the your churches’ board of deacons / board of elders need to take. I’m guessing now, but I think that probably won’t work either; I suspect that the board is stacked with his friends and “back watchers” as well.Thanks Jay C for weighing in on the discussion.
What is your church’s polity and structure? Is it a Pastor-run church?
First, this is not our congregation, thankfully. Secondly, if we understand the structure correctly, there is a large body of elders who are part of this very large church. The denomination is Missionary Alliance Church. Besides the large body of elders that serve this particular local church, there is a district level of government and then a national level. The former head pastor, who is moving towards retirement and took on a slightly different pastoral role, was brought into this situation. He is the one now supporting the pastor in question. The suggested method to deal with this is, Matt. 18 in which those who were abused must now go face to face with their abuser. It was then taken to a district level pastor, who is a retired lawyer. A kind and carrying pastor, saying the same thing, ask the pastor who abused why he did what he did. In other words, Matt. 18 again, where those who were abused must go before their abuser. I understand the reasoning behind that, BUT I believe these well meaning pastors have lost sight of the act of abuse and the trauma it caused, telling the people involved to go back to their abuser. If this was a criminal act, that would not be happening in this manner.
If these people should follow this through, how would you suggest they do this? Do you also believe they should go back to their abuser, face to face? If so, what does that prove? This pastor has had time to apologize if he was in the wrong, to which he has not done, and when asked about his actions from the other pastor, he spoke untruths.
Does anyone have suggestions here? Would you counsel people to ‘give it up’ and let God deal with these people? Or, would you say to keep fighting and if so, what suggestions would you give them?
Thank you again,
Carol
While there probably are no criminal charges that could be brought, I suspect a civil lawsuit could be filed. I’m not going to comment on the Biblical authority for that - I know believers are cautioned against going to court against other believers, but it could be done, and just given the evidence provided here, the aggrieved party might just win.
The adult couple that stayed in the room after the Pastor deceived them are responsible, by majority, for their injuries. Being angry is understandable but seeking revenge by trying to “out” the Pastor is not blessed by God nor will be in a case where there is no legal offense and even then it should not be pursued with revenge in mind, rather with valid legal remedies. This is not a case where this applies.
The couple should leave that church immediately and have nothing to do with its ministry while he is still the Pastor. They should consider it a valuable lesson learned.
Now, understand that you have given scant information and many details are missing so because of this my response is tailored to respond to only what you have revealed.
Does this make it okay, acceptable or the Pastor not responsible for his deception? Of course not. He apparently lied but the adult couple should have stood up and left that moment. They stayed and allowed themselves to be dictated to. The remedy is not a crusade against him for a private offense. And with this degree of offense the couple should leave immediately.
Either he will be given enough rope and repeat this enough times and hang himself or the congregation will become aware of this theme of deception throughout his ministry and boot him or the congregation will get what they desire and keep him.
The couple should leave that church immediately and have nothing to do with its ministry while he is still the Pastor. They should consider it a valuable lesson learned.
Now, understand that you have given scant information and many details are missing so because of this my response is tailored to respond to only what you have revealed.
Does this make it okay, acceptable or the Pastor not responsible for his deception? Of course not. He apparently lied but the adult couple should have stood up and left that moment. They stayed and allowed themselves to be dictated to. The remedy is not a crusade against him for a private offense. And with this degree of offense the couple should leave immediately.
Either he will be given enough rope and repeat this enough times and hang himself or the congregation will become aware of this theme of deception throughout his ministry and boot him or the congregation will get what they desire and keep him.
Mr. Guggenheim,
Perhaps I was not clear or I am missing your reasoning. Here is what I wrote earlier:
Because of the age of the pastor and his long career, it is our belief this pastor has probably done this to other people, which is why the desire to bring it out publicly, so if there are cases of abuse that have not been heard or shuffled under papers not to be exposed, may have the ability to be brought to light.
If I understand you correctly, you believe that would not be a worthwhile venture, because you believe it to be unbiblical, based on the information you have read here, is that correct?
Having been in a congregation, years ago, when the pastor was brought up on sexual charges, I know how unbelievable it is to the rest of the congregation, especially when the pastor has such a wonderful reputation among the members and people in the community at large. I knew as soon as the charges were brought forth with that pastor, that if it were true, more would come out of the woodwork, which is indeed what happened. What turned out as 4 charges, ended up being 11 charges with convictions on all charges. If it had not gone public, the rest of us would not have known and those who had been violated would not have been heard….even though they had tried over the years to bring justice to the situation.
Thanks for weighing in.
Respectfully,
Carol
Perhaps I was not clear or I am missing your reasoning. Here is what I wrote earlier:
[Carol K]The couple did not leave immediately as the Pastor was trying to ‘unlock’ the door or open it. The pastor tried three times to open the door without success. It was during that time that more information was said, and the first insult from the pastor was hurled at the woman and upon the door finally getting opened and the couple leaving, another insult was hurled at the husband. I think it was the pastor’s way of trying to get them to stay, but not really sure. I believe the time from trying to get the door open to actually getting it opened was maybe 3 minutes or so, not long.
The two people in the room who had been violated by this couple, now being brought into room, told the pastor “no”. They immediately got up and told the pastor that was betrayal and unethical. The pastor proceeded to bring the couple into the room. At that point, the other two parties left, feeling violated that a pastor would stoop to such tactics.
Because of the age of the pastor and his long career, it is our belief this pastor has probably done this to other people, which is why the desire to bring it out publicly, so if there are cases of abuse that have not been heard or shuffled under papers not to be exposed, may have the ability to be brought to light.
If I understand you correctly, you believe that would not be a worthwhile venture, because you believe it to be unbiblical, based on the information you have read here, is that correct?
Having been in a congregation, years ago, when the pastor was brought up on sexual charges, I know how unbelievable it is to the rest of the congregation, especially when the pastor has such a wonderful reputation among the members and people in the community at large. I knew as soon as the charges were brought forth with that pastor, that if it were true, more would come out of the woodwork, which is indeed what happened. What turned out as 4 charges, ended up being 11 charges with convictions on all charges. If it had not gone public, the rest of us would not have known and those who had been violated would not have been heard….even though they had tried over the years to bring justice to the situation.
Thanks for weighing in.
Respectfully,
Carol
Carol,
I now understand more fully. The problem was not yours but mine. When I went to the OP I recall the part that the man referred to the deception as “psychological rape” and at that point I must have blocked out the fact they had left and assumed something had gone on beyond bringing the people in the room that should not have been brought in the room.
But as it turned out, a few insults were passed by the Pastor.
At any rate it was my fault in that matter. But seeing they did leave, I believe they have even less of a case. It appears that they were insulted and deceived by a Pastor. He is not a license counselor, he did nothing illegal. There is no legal remedy.
So what is the Christian left with? Well he or she is left with taking following the Scriptural design for offenses and grievances between believers. Now if the couple feels that the health of the ministry is such that they will simply find themselves repeating the experience of being deceived or mishandled by a trusted agent of such a process within the church they have only on final option, depart from that assembly and seek another assembly for their spiritual nourishment, presumably with another assembly.
There is no biblical warrant or license to seek remedy outside of the process of grievances and offenses where no legal issue is at hand. Either believers this remedy or they keep quiet about private issues and stay put or they stay quiet about them and leave if they are dissatisfied and do not believe the health of the ministry will allow for the biblical process of offenses and grievances.
As to comparing the private offense of being insulted and deceived with public crimes, well clearly the two are not the same. The proper persons must be informed in this case which are public officials, namely Law Enforcement.
In the case of private ecclesiastical disputes, the proper officials are identified in Scripture and those persons are not any and every person within earshot. There is a process and again, this brings a person back to the options:
1. If you feel the health of the church is such that you can begin the grievance process then do so but do not gossip to others, that is not part of the process no matter how mad or injured one feels.
2. If you feel the health of the church is such that you do not feel confident that you can engage in the biblical process but want to stay at the church (I cannot imagine why) then you do not have the option to remedy your grievance through telling on the Pastor to everyone in your periphery and recruiting people to stand against him and with you. That is not a biblical option.
3. If you feel the health of the church is such that you do not that you do not feel confident that you can engage in the biblical process and do not want to stay at the church, you leave the ministry and find another one that is appropriate. However and again, one does not have the option to remedy their anger and hurt feelings through telling on the Pastor to everyone in your periphery or attempt to disaffect members still attending the former assembly. That is not a biblical option.
Again, sorry for my initial misunderstanding.
Alex (please call me Alex)
Posted without editing so forgive the typos.
I now understand more fully. The problem was not yours but mine. When I went to the OP I recall the part that the man referred to the deception as “psychological rape” and at that point I must have blocked out the fact they had left and assumed something had gone on beyond bringing the people in the room that should not have been brought in the room.
But as it turned out, a few insults were passed by the Pastor.
At any rate it was my fault in that matter. But seeing they did leave, I believe they have even less of a case. It appears that they were insulted and deceived by a Pastor. He is not a license counselor, he did nothing illegal. There is no legal remedy.
So what is the Christian left with? Well he or she is left with taking following the Scriptural design for offenses and grievances between believers. Now if the couple feels that the health of the ministry is such that they will simply find themselves repeating the experience of being deceived or mishandled by a trusted agent of such a process within the church they have only on final option, depart from that assembly and seek another assembly for their spiritual nourishment, presumably with another assembly.
There is no biblical warrant or license to seek remedy outside of the process of grievances and offenses where no legal issue is at hand. Either believers this remedy or they keep quiet about private issues and stay put or they stay quiet about them and leave if they are dissatisfied and do not believe the health of the ministry will allow for the biblical process of offenses and grievances.
As to comparing the private offense of being insulted and deceived with public crimes, well clearly the two are not the same. The proper persons must be informed in this case which are public officials, namely Law Enforcement.
In the case of private ecclesiastical disputes, the proper officials are identified in Scripture and those persons are not any and every person within earshot. There is a process and again, this brings a person back to the options:
1. If you feel the health of the church is such that you can begin the grievance process then do so but do not gossip to others, that is not part of the process no matter how mad or injured one feels.
2. If you feel the health of the church is such that you do not feel confident that you can engage in the biblical process but want to stay at the church (I cannot imagine why) then you do not have the option to remedy your grievance through telling on the Pastor to everyone in your periphery and recruiting people to stand against him and with you. That is not a biblical option.
3. If you feel the health of the church is such that you do not that you do not feel confident that you can engage in the biblical process and do not want to stay at the church, you leave the ministry and find another one that is appropriate. However and again, one does not have the option to remedy their anger and hurt feelings through telling on the Pastor to everyone in your periphery or attempt to disaffect members still attending the former assembly. That is not a biblical option.
Again, sorry for my initial misunderstanding.
Alex (please call me Alex)
Posted without editing so forgive the typos.
Thank you again, Mr. Guggenheim, for weighing in.
I have had to think through all the particulars you have put here and am continuing to think through them.
I understand that if this pastor was a licensed counselor, the law would apply to him. I am curious about Teri’s comment on civil law. I want to have a closer look at that one.
This matter was taken to another pastor in their church, then to the next level of government. All were citing Matt. 18 and to go back to the offender. I have a tough time with that when you think of the ‘abuse’ that was taken place. The pastor has had time to apologize, which he has not done and in fact, told untruths to cover up his big mistake…..so…..
Is there a biblical obligation on the abused parties to take this further or do they walk away, leaving it for God to deal with? If I understand you correctly, Mr. Guggenheim, your suggestion is that they walk away, or stay and fight, but not share information with others, based on your reasoning stated above.
I will dig more into the civil law end of things and see what comes up.
Once again, thank you. If anyone else has counsel, I would appreciate hearing it. I know this is a difficult subject.
Respectfully,
Carol
I have had to think through all the particulars you have put here and am continuing to think through them.
I understand that if this pastor was a licensed counselor, the law would apply to him. I am curious about Teri’s comment on civil law. I want to have a closer look at that one.
This matter was taken to another pastor in their church, then to the next level of government. All were citing Matt. 18 and to go back to the offender. I have a tough time with that when you think of the ‘abuse’ that was taken place. The pastor has had time to apologize, which he has not done and in fact, told untruths to cover up his big mistake…..so…..
Is there a biblical obligation on the abused parties to take this further or do they walk away, leaving it for God to deal with? If I understand you correctly, Mr. Guggenheim, your suggestion is that they walk away, or stay and fight, but not share information with others, based on your reasoning stated above.
I will dig more into the civil law end of things and see what comes up.
Once again, thank you. If anyone else has counsel, I would appreciate hearing it. I know this is a difficult subject.
Respectfully,
Carol
Carol, (and please call me Alex)
I will have more time tomorrow to respond with further thoughts but do know, I am quite sympathetic to those who have been hurt and are seeking to treat both the injury and their future concerns.
Alex
I will have more time tomorrow to respond with further thoughts but do know, I am quite sympathetic to those who have been hurt and are seeking to treat both the injury and their future concerns.
Alex
I appreciate all you can share, Mr. Alex! :)
Respectfully,
Carol
Respectfully,
Carol
[Carol K]…This matter was taken to another pastor in their church, then to the next level of government. All were citing Matt. 18 and to go back to the offender. I have a tough time with that when you think of the ‘abuse’ that was taken place. The pastor has had time to apologize, which he has not done and in fact, told untruths to cover up his big mistake…..so…..If you (or your friends, I should say) are trying to bring it before the Board and they’re not acting on it, then I’d say it’s not even worth remaining at the church. There’s a clear lack of follow through and diligence by the Board to address this matter scripturally, and they (apparently) aren’t going to do it. I would advise your friends to leave as soon as possible to be united with some good church that will be concerned about doctrinal fidelity and conducting themselves a Biblical way. Leaving gracefully (although difficult since the wrongdoing has been done to the family that’s leaving), is the only appropriate course of action that I see at this point.
Is there a biblical obligation on the abused parties to take this further or do they walk away, leaving it for God to deal with? If I understand you correctly, Mr. Guggenheim, your suggestion is that they walk away, or stay and fight, but not share information with others, based on your reasoning stated above.
That being said, I think that the repeated statements that you have made about litigation are a clear violation of I Cor. 6, and I would strongly warn you against it. To wit:
[HCSB]I think at this point, this family needs to choose to handle it rightly, and as I said before, it will probably result in the family leaving. Is it ‘just’ or ‘fair’? No, probably not, but God will be the ‘ultimate’ avenger of evil (Romans 13 / Hebrews 10:29-31), and bringing this into the courts is going to dishonor God, which is ultimately what our chief concerns should be about.
1 Does any of you who has a complaint against someone dare go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels—not to speak of things pertaining to this life? 4 So if you have cases pertaining to this life, do you select those who have no standing in the church to judge? 5 I say this to your shame! Can it be that there is not one wise person among you who will be able to arbitrate between his brothers? 6 Instead, brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
7 Therefore, it is already a total defeat for you that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you act unjustly and cheat—and this to brothers! 9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 Some of you were like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[Jay C.]Mr. Jay C, bringing this passage to the front is good. Here is where I struggle with it. The part I have highlighted here, would be the purpose of bringing this to light, not revenge. In other words, to not bring out the failures of this pastor, allows for the pastor to continue doing what he is doing, or even has been doing. That would be allowing the name of Jesus Christ, by a man who has been ordained and called a pastor, to abuse the sheep and in some cases, those who may not be sheep but are seeking. So while this man is cloaked under the name of ‘believer’ his fruit is not that of a man of God. If this is brought before the elders, which then they pass off in protection of the pastor, then passed onto the higher government, to which gets passed over because of ‘connections’ at what point do they say ‘help’ from those outside the church? This passage is geared towards believers calling one another into lawsuit, correct? What if the person calls them self a believer, but their actions/fruit show otherwise?
I think at this point, this family needs to choose to handle it rightly, and as I said before, it will probably result in the family leaving. Is it ‘just’ or ‘fair’? No, probably not, but God will be the ‘ultimate’ avenger of evil (Romans 13 / Hebrews 10:29-31), and bringing this into the courts is going to dishonor God, which is ultimately what our chief concerns should be about.
I mentioned previously about the church we had attended years ago where the pastor was brought up on and convicted of sexual assault charges. That man was an ordained pastor. He claimed to be a believer. Is it only when we cross over into ‘criminal’ behavior we can claim that a ‘believer’ no longer gets the protection of 1 Corn 6? At what point do we protect the ‘flock’ from pastors who abuse? Is it based on whether or not it’s ‘legally criminal’ vs. spiritual abuse? Or are we saying, based on 1 Corn. 6 no Christian should be taking another ‘believer’ to court for any reason?
Again, I should state this is not to get revenge, that is not the purpose of trying to bring light to the situation. The purpose is to expose the behavior of a pastor that was unethical, which then allows those who have also been abused, to come forward. By trying to go through the proper channels, it is getting stonewalled, at this point in time. Do these people stop moving forward based on 1 Corn.6? The couple involved were quite willing to have the pastor confess his sins and repent, that was never an issue, even though the betrayal was devastating. If there is an obligation for this couple to speak up, in the defense of those who could not speak up, should they? Or, do they walk away leaving it to the judgment of God, hoping that this never happens to anyone else?
Thank you again for the discussion, this is truly important and beneficial.
Respectfully,
Carol
From a non-legal point of view, I think that this should be handled exclusively in the church. No one has yet mentioned I Timothy 5, but I think it is applicable. If the attempts to handle it in the church according to Scripture fail, I think they should leave and that in a gracious spirit. They need to be part of a church where they can gladly submit to those in authority.
From a legal point of view …
(Disclaimer: though I am an attorney, 1) no one here is my client, 2) I am not offering legal advice, 3) I don’t know what state this is located in, I do not know the laws there, and I likely am not licensed to practice there).
The only even possible claim I can think of is the tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress. Most courts hate this claim - they look at is as tacked on to other tort claims in an attempt to get big dollars for a difficult to quantify injury. Also, it is hard to meet all the elements. And most courts hate to get involved in church disputes, which is how many would classify this. As an attorney, I would not take a case like this for fear of being censured by the court.
I cannot imagine any sort of criminal statute applicable. The pastor is accused of lying. And that’s only against the law a very few specific situations. And even if there is applicable criminal law, the decision to prosecute does not lie with the victim, the prosecutors have to determine it is worth pursuing. I can not imagine that happening in this case.
But, to reiterate, this is a matter for the church.
From a legal point of view …
(Disclaimer: though I am an attorney, 1) no one here is my client, 2) I am not offering legal advice, 3) I don’t know what state this is located in, I do not know the laws there, and I likely am not licensed to practice there).
The only even possible claim I can think of is the tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress. Most courts hate this claim - they look at is as tacked on to other tort claims in an attempt to get big dollars for a difficult to quantify injury. Also, it is hard to meet all the elements. And most courts hate to get involved in church disputes, which is how many would classify this. As an attorney, I would not take a case like this for fear of being censured by the court.
I cannot imagine any sort of criminal statute applicable. The pastor is accused of lying. And that’s only against the law a very few specific situations. And even if there is applicable criminal law, the decision to prosecute does not lie with the victim, the prosecutors have to determine it is worth pursuing. I can not imagine that happening in this case.
But, to reiterate, this is a matter for the church.
Mr. Jack,
Thank you for drawing me to the 1 Tim. 5 scripture. I agree this is a matter for the church, which is why the steps that have been taken so far have been taken. However, if the elders of the church do not deal with this and rather ignore it due to further actions from the pastor in question, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the people just walk away, gracefully, and leave it at the feet of the Lord, do I have that correct? Let me make sure you understood the part of betrayal on the part of the pastor. This pastor set up this couple, in addition to lying. He set them up to force the injured party to face people they had already suffered great pains from. The couple were in the process of attempting to build trust with this pastor and all that had taken place and an agreed upon meeting was possible for the following day. This pastor blatantly betrayed and set this couple up.
If I am understanding the general idea here, those who are weighing in believe there is no responsibility on the part of those who were betrayed and lied to by the pastor, to attempt to have this pastor brought into account. If the ‘biblical’ principles were followed, but the elders failed to meet their requirements, the situation is to be let go.
Thank you again….still putting it all before the Lord.
Respectfully,
Carol
Thank you for drawing me to the 1 Tim. 5 scripture. I agree this is a matter for the church, which is why the steps that have been taken so far have been taken. However, if the elders of the church do not deal with this and rather ignore it due to further actions from the pastor in question, if I understand you correctly, you are saying the people just walk away, gracefully, and leave it at the feet of the Lord, do I have that correct? Let me make sure you understood the part of betrayal on the part of the pastor. This pastor set up this couple, in addition to lying. He set them up to force the injured party to face people they had already suffered great pains from. The couple were in the process of attempting to build trust with this pastor and all that had taken place and an agreed upon meeting was possible for the following day. This pastor blatantly betrayed and set this couple up.
If I am understanding the general idea here, those who are weighing in believe there is no responsibility on the part of those who were betrayed and lied to by the pastor, to attempt to have this pastor brought into account. If the ‘biblical’ principles were followed, but the elders failed to meet their requirements, the situation is to be let go.
Thank you again….still putting it all before the Lord.
Respectfully,
Carol
The purpose is to expose the behavior of a pastor that was unethical, which then allows those who have also been abused, to come forward.It is Scriptural to bring more than one witness to a situation where you are ‘accusing an elder’- but a public announcement in order to encourage folks to come forward with past grievances that they have heretofore not brought forward in order to ‘build a case’ is not a viable solution IMO.
I think because we occasionally talk about fellow Christians as being weaker brethren or as wounded, abused, baby Christians etc… that we think they aren’t capable of handling their own problems. In a situation like this, should we assume that if the pastor isn’t nailed to the wall, he will continue to victimize others as he did this couple, and as he may have victimized many in the past who have never made their issues public? And should we then channel Mike Wallace and launch a well-publicized investigation because Scriptural principles didn’t work to our satisfaction?
If the church leadership has been brought into the situation and has decided to stand by a pastor who has no problem with deceitful, unethical, and manipulative methods, then IMO these folks should shake the dust off their loafers and find another church- especially one that does not stack its eldership with yes men.
My dh and I have experienced two similar situations in the past that sideswiped us personally- one where the church leadership was immersed in nepotism, and one where Scriptural principles were sacrificed on the altar of ‘protecting the authority of the pastor’. Some churches simply have corrupted leadership, and sometimes there is nothing we can do about that except walk away. My dh and I struggled with this exact question (of ‘outing’ the leadership or walking away) and other than believing we could not in good conscience take it upon ourselves to broadcast what had been happening and call for a church-wide outcry, we also realized that there were lots of young Christians and new church members who would be hurt more by the conflict than would be helped by the attempted ‘impeachment’ of the pastor.
If people are exercising their spiritual discernment, they will also come to know the truth through the work of the Holy Spirit and Providence, and pretty soon someone’s wallet is going to be affected because he’s running out of sheep to fleece. It just doesn’t happen as quickly as we’d like, I think. There are times to stay and fight apostasy or abuse, but there are times when people want what they want, and you have to leave them to it.
Susan,
Thank you again for weighing in. I appreciate your perspective.
I did a little searching on the blog archives and found http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=8003&highlight=abuse] THIS thread. I have been working my way through it. I am really glad we have access to the archives, I find I used them often.
Carol
Thank you again for weighing in. I appreciate your perspective.
I did a little searching on the blog archives and found http://20.sharperiron.org/showthread.php?t=8003&highlight=abuse] THIS thread. I have been working my way through it. I am really glad we have access to the archives, I find I used them often.
Carol
Discussion