How does God want Christians to profit concerning worship from Exodus 32:17-20?

In my opinion, Exodus 32 has everything to do with the object/person of our worship, and has nothing at all to do with music philosophy or practice.

The profit is that it’s bad to worship a pagan deity through singing.

School us

The text specifically calls our attention to music in the passage.

Are you sure that the text doesn’t specifically call our attention to dancing?

Are you saying that the music was what made Moses angry?

I suppose some might carry this to the logical end that idol worshippers used music (not sure what kind) and danced, therefore music and dancing (sorry King David) are to be rejected as part of worship because of their association.

I’ll be following with interest..

It would probably help to bring the King David verses into the picture. Here is II Samuel 6:14-16:

“And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart.”

So this music was characterized by shouting and dancing. From a distance, the trumpet sounds might have been mistaken for the sounds of battle. The difference in the passages is the object of the worship. In Exodus, the object was a false god, In II Samuel 6, David said in verse 21, “Therefore will I play before the Lord.”

Considering that God has just expressly told Moses that they should not make any graven images, I think that is the key to the passage.

I will join in the puzzlement about how this passage on idolatry pertains to our discussions a few days ago regarding musical form. Maybe we should conclude that all musical expression is wrong, just to be on the safe side?

But that directly conflicts with many other Scriptural passages, so that can’t be right either. I am also fairly certain that Mount Calvary has a musical component to their services.

https://apeopleforhisname.org/2018/12/is-exodus-32-a-record-of-an-event…

https://apeopleforhisname.org/2018/10/is-exodus-32-a-record-of-singing-…

[RajeshG]

Kevin Miller wrote:

It would probably help to bring the King David verses into the picture. Here is II Samuel 6:14-16:

“And David danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the Lord came into the city of David, Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the Lord; and she despised him in her heart.”

So this music was characterized by shouting and dancing. From a distance, the trumpet sounds might have been mistaken for the sounds of battle. The difference in the passages is the object of the worship. In Exodus, the object was a false god, In II Samuel 6, David said in verse 21, “Therefore will I play before the Lord.”

No, the difference in the passages is not the object of the worship. Exodus 32:5 says that what was to take place on that day was a feast to the LORD.

Note that it’s not obvious from the passage that the quality of the music itself was the problem. According to the passage, Moses’ anger did not “wax hot” until he “saw the calf, and the dancing.” You should also note that it wasn’t the music that started Moses and Joshua down the mountain — according to verse 15, they had already started, so maybe they just noticed it as they got closer to the camp. Maybe at first it wasn’t any different than one of them wondering “what on earth is going on here?”

But even if Moses recognized something in the music that bothered him, we don’t know what it was. It could have been that the people had re-purposed an Egyptian song used to worship their gods and changed it to “worship the Lord.” That’s problematic, but could be a problem of association more than a problem of “inherently evil” music. But for all we know they could have taken a song they normally sang to the Lord, and sung it to the calf instead, which would be reasonable given the people were declaring a feast to the Lord. Maybe Joshua just misinterpreted drum beats (or trumpets as stated above) they heard from afar as something that would have been used in battle, but Moses could hear that it was more musical. With Moses’ education, he might have had a much greater understanding of both. But the truth is, we don’t really know more than what is written in the passage.

In other words, the passage is indeed instructive about false worship (which included music and singing). It says nothing at all whether the music itself was a problem. It does reinforce that worshiping God through an idol was false worship, but that could even have used otherwise “good” music. Again, we don’t really know.

https://apeopleforhisname.org/2016/11/beatboxing-exodus-32-and-the-ccm-…

Rajesh is clear about CCM and he uses Exodus 32 [I’m glad Rajesh, who has recently joined S/I, is here!!! But it appears he has an agenda. I’m OK with that … but it should be out front!]

His CCM articles

https://apeopleforhisname.org/category/discipleship/music/ccm/

Make … it … stop … This merri-go-round keeps spinning, getting nowhere. Perhaps it’s time to jump off?

The main point of this text is the sin of idol worship. Despite Aaron’s claim, it is still idol worship. The music and dancing fail to rise to the level of even secondary issues. To make music a primary point is just plain poor exegesis. Even implying that “rose up to play” means playing music leaves me speechless but when one has a hammer……..

It appears the Israelites were listening to “Oceans,” and that was what Moses and Joshua heard on the mountain. Everything goes back to Hillsong …

Rajesh said:

The verb “to play” has to mean something that they were doing after they had eaten the sacrifices that were offered to the idol. If it does not refer to their singing and their dancing, which are the only activities recorded that they did after they ate the sacrifices, you have to explain why not and what it does refer to and you have to show from the passage why what you say it refers to is so.

Actually it’s up to you to prove that it does refer to playing music if you wish to make it a warrant for your claim.

But consider that there seems to be no place in the OT where this word refers to playing music. Also consider that translators have used phrases like “indulge in revelry”, “to play shamefully—without moral restraint”, “got up to party”, and “to scorn, for idolatry is (the) scorning of God”. While most translations leave the word as play, your claim that it’s to play music needs to be proved!

It appears the Israelites were listening to “Oceans,” and that was what Moses and Joshua heard on the mountain. Everything goes back to Hillsong …

THAT must be why I dislike that band so much! How much new music can you actually churn out after, what, 6,000 years?

As for “playing”, let’s see what the Bible Knowledge Commentary has to say:

32:5–6. Aaron then made an altar, and the next day in a festival to the LORD.… the people offered burnt offerings and … fellowship offerings. But then their activities led to revelry (cf. 1 Cor. 10:7; ṣāḥaq suggests immorality). This violated the seventh commandment (Ex. 20:14). Singing and dancing were included (32:18–19) and they were “running wild” (v. 25). Immorality often accompanies idolatry (Rom. 1:22–24)

John D. Hannah, “Exodus,” in The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, ed. J. F. Walvoord and R. B. Zuck, vol. 1 (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1985), 155.

So yes, the “playing” is clearly a reference to flutes. Clearly.

You said this:

If it does not refer to their singing and their dancing, which are the only activities recorded that they did after they ate the sacrifices, you have to explain why not and what it does refer to and you have to show from the passage why what you say it refers to is so.

The bold words seem to imply that the playing refers to their singing and dancing unless someone can prove it doesn’t. You’re the one who has made music a major issue in this passage and the rules of rhetoric are that you prove your claim–-not that others have to disprove your claim.

Of course if you believe their playing does not refer to music–-say so.

[RajeshG]

No, the description of the dancing in the 2 Samuel passage is not very similar to the description in Exodus. In Exodus, you have Moses, the leading man of God in his day who has just been in the direct presence of God and is a man who has the Spirit on him, and his anger waxed hot at seeing their dancing. Their dancing was not anything like what David’s was.

Also, what basis do you have in the text of Exodus 32 for asserting that the music on this occasion was very similar to the music in the 2 Samuel passage?

I’m simply doing the same thing with II Samuel 6 as you did with Exodus 15. I’m not sure why you would say they are not all similar. II Samuel 6 mentions trumpets, so we don’t have any Biblical basis to say that the Israelites did not use at least trumpets in the GCI. In fact, three months earlier when they were moving the ark, we read “David and all Israel were celebrating with all their might before the Lord, with castanets, harps, lyres, timbrels, sistrums and cymbals.” (II Samuel 6:5)

If it wasn’t oceans, was it “In Christ Alone?”

Exodus 32 contains divine revelation of a very intensely negative evaluation of the people’s dancing by the leading man of God in his day…

No, it doesn’t. Stop pulling verses out of context to support your ideas. Exodus 32 is extremely clear what the problem is, and it’s not dancing:

7 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8 They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’

There is no mention of music or dancing. God makes it very clear that idolatry is the problem. Furthermore:

9 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20 And he took the calf the people had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.

21 He said to Aaron, “What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?”

22 “Do not be angry, my lord,” Aaron answered. “You know how prone these people are to evil. 23 They said to me, ‘Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.’ 24 So I told them, ‘Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.’ Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!”

Again, Moses’ fury is directed at the calf, not the music or the dancing. There are no commands anywhere in this passage about stopping their music or their dancing. It’s all about the calf.

Also:

So because a commentator says that a word suggests something and gives no Bible references to back up what he says it suggests, that makes it so?

No, but when a Hebrew word is used to indicate fornication and sexual immorality elsewhere in the OT (Numbers 25:2), I think that’s pretty good ground to stand on.

Seriously, Rajesh, you need to take a hermeneutics class. This is basic stuff.

And Tyler? Now you’ve quit preaching and gone to meddling. :)

[RajeshG] Are you interested in discussing what a specific text of Scripture teaches or do you have some other agenda of your own by posting a response such as this one …

Look in the mirror! You see CCM behind every tree

[Jay] Seriously, Rajesh, you need to take a hermeneutics class. This is basic stuff.

It appears that Rajesh has a PhD in NT Interpretation, so maybe push back without the insult? Many on here have been asking for someone to present a Biblical reason for rejecting CCM. This is why no one one wants to. Instead of conversation, we get insults.

[Jim]

RajeshG wrote:

Are you interested in discussing what a specific text of Scripture teaches or do you have some other agenda of your own by posting a response such as this one …

Look in the mirror! You see CCM behind every tree

[AndyE] You were the one who warned us about Rajesh’s “agenda” in the first place. He pushes back and you get offended?

Finale for me on this thread and them I’m out of here!

• I’m not bothered by Rajesh’s “agenda” … just stated it with links
• I’m not offended (and frankly I don’t care!)
• I’m not promoting CCM. My church is about as conservative as it gets on music and I am too
• I just am pushing back on the use of the Exodus passage to condemn CCM

I’m taking the seat next to Jim.

I realize that Rajesh has a degree. I was hoping he’d put it to use.

As I’ve said repeatedly, making claims without supporting warrants for those claims is an easy thing to do.

For 40 years I’ve been hearing claims about music. When I’ve asked for warrants (proofs) I’ve been told that it’s up to me to disprove the claim. That tactic loses in meaningful debate every time.

[Ron Bean]

…making claims without supporting warrants for those claims is an easy thing to do.

For 40 years I’ve been hearing claims about music. When I’ve asked for warrants (proofs) I’ve been told that it’s up to me to disprove the claim. That tactic loses in meaningful debate every time.

This ^^^^^^.

[AndyE]

Jay wrote:

Seriously, Rajesh, you need to take a hermeneutics class. This is basic stuff.

It appears that Rajesh has a PhD in NT Interpretation, so maybe push back without the insult? Many on here have been asking for someone to present a Biblical reason for rejecting CCM. This is why no one one wants to. Instead of conversation, we get insults.

I didn’t know Rajesh has a Ph.D., much less one in New Testament Interpretation.

I stand my ground that Exodus 32 is about idolatry and has nothing (or very little) to do with music styles and/or dance. I completely reject the idea that that passage has anything to do with 21st Century worship practices for the Christian Church.

Also for the record, I disagree with dancing in corporate worship as well, mostly because I never have any idea what the dancer is actually supposed to be conveying in their dance. YMMV.