Friends Who Are Sinners (Homosexuality)

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When I was in High School I had a friend who was a perpetual liar. He had such a reputation for going far beyond exaggeration that people who know him well knew that his word could not be trusted.

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If you were to call my friend a liar, I could not argue with you. Further, I would not try to convince you that lying is okay simply because I have a friend who lies. Sadly, some people try to convince us that certain sins are okay simply because they have friends and family involved in those sins. This is especially true of homosexuality.

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A lot of things are sinful. That is why Jesus died and rose again- because we are all sinners whether gay or straight. What makes the discussion on homosexuality so difficult is that most people are willing to admit that lying, stealing, slandering, murder and so many other things are wrong, but want to ignore what the Bible says about homosexuality.

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At the same time, we must never forget that just like any other sin, if a person trusts Christ and really repents, it will be forgiven. We must also remember that we all struggle with sin. “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23). Some people struggle with pornography, others struggle with alcoholism (drunkenness), others struggle with covetousness (greed), and some struggle with homosexual desires.

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Think of it this way, if a married man has a desire for a woman other than his wife, does it make it okay for him to sleep with her? No! It is wrong because it is adultery and God makes it clear that adultery is a sin. Some would argue that this is only wrong because the wife could be hurt in this situation, but even if the husband was able to do it without the wife ever finding out, it would still be wrong! The point is, it is wrong because it is sin. The same is true of homosexuality.

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Now if a person has homosexual temptations, but admits that acting on them is a sin, then I see no reason to treat it different than other sins people are tempted with. But if the person has the temptation and says there is nothing wrong with acting on it, then they are denying the scripture.

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I understand that not everyone is a Christian. For an unbeliever these arguments really are not applicable unless they eventually come to the point to finally agree with what God has said, but for those of you who believe on Christ, they should believe the Bible, and it is very clear on this specific sin. That doesn’t mean we do not care about friends who are sinners, but let us not make excuses for their sin no matter what it is. Let us also recognize that we are all sinners and not make excuses for our own sins either.

Discussion

I was feeling cranky this AM so I thought I’d look for something to argue with here, but I you’ve summed it up pretty well. The cultural trend—a very strong one—is to put homosexual conduct in a special category. At one end of the spectrum, you have the attitude “if this is how you’re oriented, then it’s how you have to behave” and, usually with that, the view that it’s a civil right. At the other end you have the Worleys of Christendom who want to make this a uniquely evil special category. It’s true that Rom.1 associates shame with this behavior in a special way, but lots of sins have unique features (one passage associates greed with idolatry, for example).

Sadly, Christians have tended to either side with the “can’t help it/civil right” special category or the “lock ‘em all up and throw away the key” special category rather than dealing with it simply as sexual immorality (though an especially self-degrading form of it).

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.

We have to Love people enough to not let them settle for sin or allow other people to let us settle for sin. God wants more for us than for us to do whatever we want with our bodies. As a Christian we first belong to God and secondly belong to other aspects of life. We can’t allow the clear pain of people and the temptation to avoid being called intolerant affect us. When people are in sin they are in pain whether they realise it or not they are playing with a dangerous thing. It is up to us to in a decent and loving manner seek to help people come out of sin and practice what we preach. We can’t be effective in dealing with homosexuality as long as we privately allow our own sins to control us out of sight. The problem is many of us in the Church don’t call ourselves to live out holiness (I have my own failings) but we sit judgemental of others sin. We need to instead love people by taking them to the cross with us as we all confess our sins and turn it all over to God. We saved people and I agree more with the Baptist “Once Saved Always Saved” here still need that humility of confessing to God. We may not loose our salvation but we can be at a place that we are hindering the work of God.

At some point, don’t you have to reach an “agree to disagree” position with some friends and some sins?

If the Christian friend does not believe homosexuality (or remarriage after divorce or not spanking or alcohol, etc.) is a sin, at what point do you stop harassing them about it?

I know you don’t think you are “harassing” them, you think you are Speaking Truth. ;-) But at some point your continued disagreement is experienced as harassment or bullying by the friend. What then? It is a personal relationship. They probably aren’t members of your (conservative) church if there is this level of disagreement, so “church discipline” isn’t helpful. How do you proceed? Don’t you have to agree to disagree and just be a friend?

Rachel L. the problem is Christians aren’t called to agree to disagree. We are not to bully people or try to force people. We however are not to act as if all alternatives are on an equal footing because they aren’t. You have the way of God as taught in scripture vs. the wages of sin which lead to destruction. I can agree to let a person go as far as my interaction if that is what they want but I can’t stop praying that God will deliver them from sin and that God at the same time will give me the strength to face my own sins. Whether they go to my Church or not is of little importance. What is important is leading people to God and helping people on the road to being a Disciple of Jesus Christ. I could care less if they go to my Church are liberal or conservative. What matters is if they have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and you can’t have a good relationship when you disobey God and refuse to follow scripture. You can go to a Conservative Church and still go to hell. You can read the King James Version of the Bible and take your kids to the Creation Museum and still go to hell. A person can go to a liberal Church and by the grace of God still have a good relationship. A person can leave Church and still have a relationship though it is a great deal harder without a community of faith.

If you believe they are sinning, then sure you are to be praying.

I’m talking about your interactions with them. If your homosexual friend is a professing Christian and has wrestled with the idea and feels that they are NOT sinning, would you keep restating your belief? In every conversation? Once a month? Once a year? Do you feel the need to keep talking about this issue that you disagree about? At some point (relatively quickly), your friend is going to feel like shouting, “I know what you believe!! With prayer and examination, I’ve come to a different conclusion!” And if you keep stating your beliefs, all you will do is damage your relationship with them.

I think this is a practical thing to consider. One can write millions of posts about “Why I Believe XYZ Is Sin,” but none of that helps you interact with real-life people who disagree with you.

I’m sure we all have Christian friends with whom we disagree about beverage alcohol (or something else), do we harass them about it by bringing up our disagreement frequently? Is it helpful? Does it promote close fellowship? Does it change their minds?

Rachel,

Part of the issue has to be the subject of disagreement. You went from homosexuality to beverage alcohol in your examples. These are two very different topics dealt with in very different levels of explicitness in scripture. I don’t think the believer can enjoy ongoing “fellowship” with someone living in direct, open violation of scripture.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Chip,

I appreciate your response.

So you would choose to end (or significantly curtail) your friendship with a fellow Christian, even though (I assume that) you would not refuse to socialize with an unsaved person sinning in the same way?

I’m not baiting you, I’m just trying to understand why the “agree to disagree” method isn’t one you would apply.

I also don’t entirely understand why the two topics I used are too different to be used as examples. They seem similar if a Christian takes the “all alcohol consumption is sin” approach.

It is different if the person involved is a professing fellow believer vs. an unbeliever. (e.g., 1 Cor. 5:9-10)

But I think we need to separate “beliefs about homosexual conduct” from “interaction with people who sin in this way.” These are two different questions. Relationships (the “interaction” side) are dynamic and complex. The ethical/moral stand we take with Scripture informs the interaction but isn’t subject (or shouldn’t be) at all to it.

Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.