Ever Heard of Ellerslie?
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I saw a link to this website- http://www.ellerslie.com/ and wondered if anyone here ever heard of it, had experience with it…? Is it a program you would recommend?
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I had no idea this thread was out here until today - took a while to read through all the comments thus far but I think I have a good grasp of who’s saying what here. So I’ll dive in. :)
As far as the discussion on the definition of “cult” goes, Charlie summed it up quite nicely http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-ever-heard-of-ellerslie#comment-163…] here . Webster’s has a number of definitions, and in this discussion I think two are important:
1.) ” a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents”
2.) “a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion”
So when I say “cult,” I’m not referring to the orthodoxy or unorthodoxy of a doctrinal statement (according to the first definition above); I’m referring to numerous practices and principles that square with a lot of other practices and principles commonly identified with a cult (according to the second definition above). One or two common practices do not a cult make, and so far I don’t believe anyone has come out and said Ellerslie is a cult, just that it shares some practices and principles with cultish organizations.
[joshk] This gets into different theologies (which by the way we are discouraged to talk about during Ellerslie, specifically because this is a time to cultivate our own theology according to the Bible, and not base it on what another student says.) that many have discussed over the ages.Some of the seeds of what I’m learning now (five years out of college) in my own personal growth were planted during rather heated discussions of theology over lunch and dinner with my fellow Bible majors. Some of what I’m learning right now I could have learned then and saved myself five years of wandering in a theological wasteland. I’m just thinking out loud here - you are encouraged to “cultivate [your] own theology according to the Bible” (which, BTW, I believe is a GREAT thing; it was very late in my college experience that I was encouraged to do the same) yet you are discouraged (not banned, I assume?) from running the fruits of your study by other students. How then do you know whether your theology is on point? With whom do you discuss your findings? I assume with your teachers or possibly Eric himself. In cases where you come to a different conclusion than that of your mentors, how do they respond to your interpretation?
As far as the discussion on the definition of “cult” goes, Charlie summed it up quite nicely http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-ever-heard-of-ellerslie#comment-163…] here . Webster’s has a number of definitions, and in this discussion I think two are important:
1.) ” a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents”
2.) “a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : the object of such devotion c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion”
So when I say “cult,” I’m not referring to the orthodoxy or unorthodoxy of a doctrinal statement (according to the first definition above); I’m referring to numerous practices and principles that square with a lot of other practices and principles commonly identified with a cult (according to the second definition above). One or two common practices do not a cult make, and so far I don’t believe anyone has come out and said Ellerslie is a cult, just that it shares some practices and principles with cultish organizations.
[joshk] yes it is possible for Eric to have a bad interpretation of scripture. Since he hasn’t thus far, I have no reason to doubt his interpretations in the future, though I still test them using the Bible.With respect, this rings hollow to me, despite the assurance that everything would be tested according to the Bible in the future. Two things I see here:
- “Since he hasn’t thus far” - that’s a pretty absolute statement to make about someone older than you. How can you be sure all his interpretations have always been true? Since this was an unqualified statement, I have no choice but to assume that you believe he has never made an interpretational error.
- “I have no reasons to doubt his interpretations in the future” - this is simply naive. To infer that no mistakes have been made in the past and to opine that likely no mistakes will be made in the future, you are one step away from saying that his interpretations are timeless and infallible. I’m not saying you’re there, just that the way you represent your thoughts on the matter puts you awfully close. I would encourage you to be more precise if this is not what you believe.
If one truly believes someone’s interpretations are beyond reproach, how impartial would he really be when he compares his interpretations to the Bible? How impartial *can* he be, really, if he goes into the searching bit thinking that his interpretation isn’t wrong in the first place? There’s a huge difference between “Huh, that’s interesting. I wonder if that squares with Scripture?” and “He’s probably right but I’ll look it up just to be sure.”[joshk] Alex - Thanks. Much love to you too, man. Use a Bible verse next time. Then you will have authority behind your posts rather than just sound like a 1 Corinthians 13:1b “a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” :p I know thats out of context and a bad use of the verse, so disregard that as a use of my theology.
For chastising Aaron so soundly up above for mixing one word from a 400-year-old creed with a Bible verse, I’m a little surprised you would so casually use the very Word of God as a personal attack, never mind admitting to it up front. If you truly respect the Bible that much, please be consistent about it. Contrary to your advise to “disregard that” when considering your theology, it is in fact very telling about your approach to Scripture.
So taking you up on your invitation, my question, then, is this: to what degree are students at Ellerslie allowed to disagree on doctrinal matters with the faculty and administration? If a student comes to a conclusion and can support it without mis-interpreting Scripture, and that conclusion is different to that held by the faculty and administration, how is it handled?
[Charlie] It’s a place organized by a charismatic leader that draws in impressionable young people by promising them a fast-track to serving Jesus. While there, they are subjected to a tightly-regimented lifestyle including high-intensity spiritual exercises. They are isolated from external contact and told that submission to authority is an integral part of their training. I think that a non-Christian (neutral) sociologist taking a look at Ellerslie would raise a few eyebrows. The theologian in me sees red flags everywhere. The “Why Ellerslie” page reeks of gnosticism (used loosely).That’s the element that raises the most concern for me. I listened to the video that joshk linked to, and there are descriptors such as ‘Ellerslie is the place where plowshares are beaten into swords’, where you come to be ‘set apart’ because ‘in this culture it is nearly impossible’, that it is ‘the Keswick convention of this day’… that God is working out the kind of faith seen in Hebrews 11 at Ellerslie, where the ‘flesh is bulldozed’, ‘put to death’, ‘self is eradicated’… Ellerslie is a place where you ‘come to die’.
It’s fine and dandy to teach the necessity of the death of the flesh, and I have very few issues with the doctrinal content I’ve seen/read so far (but you have to swim through alot of hyperbole to extract it)- pretty much all my concerns have to do with the methods and model. Our flesh needs to die daily. Intense training for a season is not going to be a magic pill. When a young person leaves Ellerslie, they are going to have to continue the principles they’ve learned in this isolated and intense environment out in society, surrounded by modern culture.
One of the videos describes Ellerslie as being “Jane Austen meets Lord of the Rings”. There is MUCH grandiose language on every page of the site and spoken with breathless intensity in every video I’ve heard. If there’s one thing they learn at Ellerslie, it is to be completely in love with adjectives and metaphors. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-confused002.gif I can see the appeal to young people who want to take on the world and do something incredible for God- which is NOT a bad thing in an of itself.
But what happens when they are faced with the mundane issues of life? When they have to get up every morning and punch in the time card, perhaps after a night spent with a puking baby, no time to take a shower and eat a decent breakfast, you fell asleep reading the Bible… where’s all the “Here I come to save the day!” going to be? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php] http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-merv/spidey.gif Some people are going to feel like a failure because they haven’t been out there rescuing the masses but have been simply taking care of their own family- which is one of the primary responsibilities of each and every Christian. If you don’t have a spouse and/or children, you probably have a mother and father and elderly relatives to whom you are required to show piety before you go out there to do some ‘world saving’.
I’d just like to see more of a balanced perspective on life in this group’s marketing materials.
take on the world and do something incredible for God- which is NOT a bad thing in an of itself.Actually, I think it is a bad thing for most young people to think they will do something incredible. God’s work has always mostly been done by plodders, large numbers of ordinary people using their talents in small but faithful ways, usually never being noticed by much of anybody. This is one gripe I have with the wrong sort of use of the missionary biography genre. It tends to fuel dreamy eyed idealism which, in many cases, ends in deep frustration and bitterness—because the expectations are way out of line.
Think about the definition of hero. Meaningful use of the term refers to extraordinary acts in extraordinary circumstances… so we cannot all be “heroes.” The grandest and loftiest thing anybody can be is simply obedient—even if that means spending your adult life driving truck, raising a godly family, and never “changing the world” in any measurable way.
I’m not into idealism. I don’t think it’s good for adult, and teens especially need help growing out of it before life disasters strip them of it so painfully they end up disillusioned and walk away from the faith. So a wiser approach to training young people would be much less marketable: “Come to us to be trained for undramatic, unheralded, only-a-handful-of-people-changing, but faithful obedient and God-glorifying ministry.”
… I can see why nobody tries to sell education this way. But we’d be telling kids the truth.
Edit: my bad… should have read the rest of Susan’s post… got stopped cold at “doing something incredible.”
Susan pretty much said the same thing in her own way. The glory of God is not better served by a few heroes than by hundreds of faithful moms and dads.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
One comes to both die and be made alive at Jesus Christ, not Ellerslie. Christ is our death and resurrection. Christ is the hero, not you, not me and not anyone else. Even as his vessels we are still just that and he is still everything including the hero. This nonsense about saving the world and doing great things is just that, nonsense. Adding God’s name to the end of one’s declaration or vision does not make it God’s signature. Christ is and does the great thing, he saves the world.
[Aaron Blumer]HA! See what happens when you post impulsively? Into the Time Out Corner with you for 15 minutes! No cookies after dinner either!take on the world and do something incredible for God- which is NOT a bad thing in an of itself.Actually, I think it is a bad thing for most young people to think they will do something incredible. God’s work has always mostly been done by plodders, large numbers of ordinary people using their talents in small but faithful ways, usually never being noticed by much of anybody. This is one gripe I have with the wrong sort of use of the missionary biography genre. It tends to fuel dreamy eyed idealism which, in many cases, ends in deep frustration and bitterness—because the expectations are way out of line.
Think about the definition of hero. Meaningful use of the term refers to extraordinary acts in extraordinary circumstances… so we cannot all be “heroes.” The grandest and loftiest thing anybody can be is simply obedient—even if that means spending your adult life driving truck, raising a godly family, and never “changing the world” in any measurable way.
I’m not into idealism. I don’t think it’s good for adult, and teens especially need help growing out of it before life disasters strip them of it so painfully they end up disillusioned and walk away from the faith. So a wiser approach to training young people would be much less marketable: “Come to us to be trained for undramatic, unheralded, only-a-handful-of-people-changing, but faithful obedient and God-glorifying ministry.”
… I can see why nobody tries to sell education this way. But we’d be telling kids the truth.
Edit: my bad… should have read the rest of Susan’s post… got stopped cold at “doing something incredible.”
Susan pretty much said the same thing in her own way. The glory of God is not better served by a few heroes than by hundreds of faithful moms and dads.
I want to say that I especially agree about the misuse of missionary biographies. You can come away feeling that you have no prayer life because you can’t sit down at the dinner table and pray down a 5 course meal like George Mueller. God didn’t call everyone to have George Mueller’s ministry, or Adoniram Judson’s, or Hudson Taylor’s, or Amy Carmichael’s, and their goal when they went out wasn’t to become a Hero of the Faith. It’s great to be inspired and excited (which was what I was thinking when I said what I did about “doing something incredible”), but I think when it comes to ministry we need a serious case of tunnel vision, keeping our eyes on what God would have for us to do- whether it involves being a Godly hard-workin’ dad and faithful mom, or some kind of full-time ministry. Some of the bravest people I know are those whose names will never be known by anyone but their closest friends who are privy to their struggles and the victory they humbly experience through Christ. They may or may not be recognized and honored in this life, as are many we read in Scriptures and from biographies and journals, but what means the most to them (and should to us) is whether or not we are pleasing Christ.
Someone else mentioned the many references to gender in Eric Ludy’s messages and in the promotional videos. I understand the concern about how some things are stated, but at the core I think this is a reaction to our society’s proclivity for blurring of gender lines, and I don’t necessarily have a problem with that emphasis, as long as no one starts pounding the table or showing chest hair, or equating a ‘macho’ demeanor with Godliness.
[joshk] SNIPI know enough to be able to carry on an intelligent conversation on the Corps. And I’m ready to be corrected by those who know more about the topic.
Rob
I could accept that. I was merely saying “don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.”
Neither of you are at Ellerslie right now, because if you were, you would be right down the hall from me right now and we would be having this discussion in person. Would you say you know everything about the Marines? If not, would you tell everyone that you did? Would people, knowing you aren’t a Marine, believe you as an authority on the subject?
As my logic professor would have put it, your “don’t knock it till you’ve tried it.” is not the best argument. People have formed opinions based on public statements made by the organization. Our question for you is have we correctly read these statements or are we missing something.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
God didn’t call everyone to have George Mueller’s ministry, or Adoniram Judson’s, or Hudson Taylor’s, or Amy Carmichael’s, and their goal when they went out wasn’t to become a Hero of the Faith.I think most of these folks also obtained very thorough educations, knew how to think clearly and were especially skilled in verbal communication skills like writing.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
This is all well and good…. But….
Does anyone have any more biblical-based questions that I can help answer on behalf of Elerslie? I tend to go off on rabbit trails pretty easily because of the way my mind works, so I’ve let you all take me on them. Lets actually get back down to the original reason I came here. I apologize for rabbit-trailing.
Can we all agree that Ellerslie is biblically based? If so, can we agree that Eric Ludy is a solid Biblical teacher? If both of those we can agree on, can we agree that Ellerslie should be something you should support rather than tear it down based on something you read on a website?
Understanding Ellerslie is almost like getting to know a person. I dont post my life online. I do not post every detail of my life online. Why is it that you can take the very shallow description on Ellerslie’s site and assume that it is everything you need to know about Ellerslie? It almost sounds like a slippery slope argument.
Why is there division on this subject? Does Ellerslie make you feel uncomfortable because of “rash” statements about the Christian life? (i.e. victory, heroism, decorum.) Tell me what exactly makes you uncomfortable about Ellerslie, and give specific examples out of the BIble. If the Bible is a premise we can agree on, its a good starting block. Everything gets awesome once we find a common premise.
Does anyone have any more biblical-based questions that I can help answer on behalf of Elerslie? I tend to go off on rabbit trails pretty easily because of the way my mind works, so I’ve let you all take me on them. Lets actually get back down to the original reason I came here. I apologize for rabbit-trailing.
Can we all agree that Ellerslie is biblically based? If so, can we agree that Eric Ludy is a solid Biblical teacher? If both of those we can agree on, can we agree that Ellerslie should be something you should support rather than tear it down based on something you read on a website?
Understanding Ellerslie is almost like getting to know a person. I dont post my life online. I do not post every detail of my life online. Why is it that you can take the very shallow description on Ellerslie’s site and assume that it is everything you need to know about Ellerslie? It almost sounds like a slippery slope argument.
Why is there division on this subject? Does Ellerslie make you feel uncomfortable because of “rash” statements about the Christian life? (i.e. victory, heroism, decorum.) Tell me what exactly makes you uncomfortable about Ellerslie, and give specific examples out of the BIble. If the Bible is a premise we can agree on, its a good starting block. Everything gets awesome once we find a common premise.
So…according to http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-ever-heard-of-ellerslie#comment-165…] this we can only attack certain theological points, not just ask basic questions to help us understand the school better? You gotta admit, being able to ask someone with firsthand knowledge is a great opportunity, but it seems like a wasted opportunity to me if I can’t simply ask a general knowledge type question.
[joshk] Does anyone have any more biblical-based questions that I can help answer on behalf of Elerslie?No, we have not agreed to any of this. That has been the basis of this thread. Your participation has been disingenuous at best so far. You come in purporting to be an expert willing to help everyone better understand, but you refuse to answer the simplest questions. Instead, you spend your time attacking the very questions YOU invited. If you are not willing to provide the information requested, then you would better serve Ellerslie by simply staying out of the way than by continuing the strident disruption you have contributed to the discussion thus far.
Can we all agree that Ellerslie is biblically based? If so, can we agree that Eric Ludy is a solid Biblical teacher? If both of those we can agree on, can we agree that Ellerslie should be something you should support rather than tear it down based on something you read on a website?
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Anyone?
Mounty - you can PM me if you have general knowledge type question.
Chip - I’m sorry, was there a question in there?
Mounty - you can PM me if you have general knowledge type question.
Chip - I’m sorry, was there a question in there?
Can we all agree that Ellerslie is biblically based? If so, can we agree that Eric Ludy is a solid Biblical teacher?I’ll put my response to this in question form for you…
Does being “biblically based” mean “a solid biblical teacher?” What does “based” mean?
Isn’t it true that every variant of Christianity out there began with Scripture at some point in its history?
If that’s the case, isn’t it true that being more than “based” is necessary?
Doesn’t 2 Timothy 2:15 indicate that we must properly handle the word of truth?
But enough of that. Josh, we’re not required to just ask questions or to ask them according to your terms. Folks have expressed a number of valid concerns you have chosen to ignore. You are as free to ignore them as we are to post them, but readers will not find ignoring them very persuasive.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
[joshk] Chip - I’m sorry, was there a question in there?Nope. Just a statement of fact. Prov. 26:12
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[joshk] Mounty - you can PM me if you have general knowledge type question.FYI, in virtually every online forum, it’s usually bad form to hold private conversations related to but outside of the main discussion. You invited questions in a public forum; the answers to those questions should likewise be public. In any case, though, my question stands. If you want a boiled down version, here it is: If one were to study the scriptures for himself and become convinced of a position that is not held by his mentors, how do they handle the disagreement?
Mounty, don’t forget the biblical basis for your question: Acts 5:29.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
I mean, I would go with Rev. 1:6 but that’s just me. Don’t want to tip my hand or show any particular bias to an answer that may or may not come.
Ok, I can see that too :bigsmile:
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Aaron - Its very true you’re not required to ask questions or ask them according to my terms. Very true. According to my first post though, I limited the questions to theological based questions. If you read that and still think I have to answer all of the questions you pose to me, I believe you are mistaken. You can believe what you wish though.
In answer to your Bible verse backed question though, Yes we should properly handle the word of truth. Absolutely. How is Ellerslie NOT handling it properly?
Mounty - If it is bad form, I’m unaware of it, but my offer remains. I will only discuss what is theologically “wrong” with Ellerslie on this forum thread. Thats the reason I came into this discussion in the first place.
—
“We are not building on human philosophy, we are building on the Word of God.”
That quote was in the video about Ellerslie I linked above. I see no reason why I should discuss anything philosophical with anyone when I could discuss using the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon] Canon . Its a waste of my time, and yours if you keep asking those questions.
Apparently I need to re-define terms for answering questions about Ellerslie on this forum at this time:
I will not answer any questions that do not directly relate to Ellerslie’s statement of belief ( http://www.ellerslie.com/StatementOfBelief.html Statement Of Faith ) or something Eric has said in one of his sermons relating to the theology of Ellerslie. (Ellerslie is what we’re here for. I’m trying to get you to ask Bible verse based questions that have to do with Ellerslie’s theology, and how it differs from the Bible.)
If we can agree to that, then we can have a discussion here.
Honestly, I do not see why you all are attacking Ellerslie. If anything, you should be getting behind it and cheering Eric and Leslie on in discipling the next generation of missionaries, pastors, preachers… etc. That is, if it is Biblically sound. So far, I see no question that has been raised that is Bible verse based that goes against Ellerslie’s statement of belief. If there was one, please point it out. If there isn’t, please ask. If there is only ridicule that comes from these posts towards me, I see no reason for me to continue wasting my time here if no one has anything productive to ask. (Matthew 13:3-9)
*Off topic comments edited by moderator*
In answer to your Bible verse backed question though, Yes we should properly handle the word of truth. Absolutely. How is Ellerslie NOT handling it properly?
Mounty - If it is bad form, I’m unaware of it, but my offer remains. I will only discuss what is theologically “wrong” with Ellerslie on this forum thread. Thats the reason I came into this discussion in the first place.
—
“We are not building on human philosophy, we are building on the Word of God.”
That quote was in the video about Ellerslie I linked above. I see no reason why I should discuss anything philosophical with anyone when I could discuss using the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon] Canon . Its a waste of my time, and yours if you keep asking those questions.
Apparently I need to re-define terms for answering questions about Ellerslie on this forum at this time:
I will not answer any questions that do not directly relate to Ellerslie’s statement of belief ( http://www.ellerslie.com/StatementOfBelief.html Statement Of Faith ) or something Eric has said in one of his sermons relating to the theology of Ellerslie. (Ellerslie is what we’re here for. I’m trying to get you to ask Bible verse based questions that have to do with Ellerslie’s theology, and how it differs from the Bible.)
If we can agree to that, then we can have a discussion here.
Honestly, I do not see why you all are attacking Ellerslie. If anything, you should be getting behind it and cheering Eric and Leslie on in discipling the next generation of missionaries, pastors, preachers… etc. That is, if it is Biblically sound. So far, I see no question that has been raised that is Bible verse based that goes against Ellerslie’s statement of belief. If there was one, please point it out. If there isn’t, please ask. If there is only ridicule that comes from these posts towards me, I see no reason for me to continue wasting my time here if no one has anything productive to ask. (Matthew 13:3-9)
*Off topic comments edited by moderator*
[Susan R] Young folks often have a tremendous amount of zeal, but they haven’t tempered that energy with knowledge and experience, which is why Ellerslie concerns me just a bit. I’ve probably read too much criminal psychology, and tend to think everyone’s a predator anyway, but young folks do have this particular vulnerability, which, if exploited, can do some major damage.When I checked the page Josh referenced to identify himself, I immediately noticed this as well. All those bright, YOUNG faces looking for someone to mold them. While I have been disappointed by Josh, I have not been surprised. His demeanor is exactly what I would have expected after seeng the material on the web. It has a distinctly gnostic flavor to it: “We have found secret truth and meaning that enhances the Christian walk” kind of thng. Of course, all of this only fuels the cultish comparisons.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
I think we’ve exhausted the topic, and the people who actually attend Ellerslie who could answer the concerns here are unwilling or unable to answer, so let’s call it a day.
Thread closed for moderator review.
Thread closed for moderator review.
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