Erasing a few distorted lines in the Sand - Why Northland continues to be a healthy choice for fundamentalist students
So I’ll make this quick - relatively speaking. Northland continues to represent some of the best education within any of the orbs (Type A, B or C) fundamentalism has to offer. Not only do they remain strong in academics, preparing students with the right “world view,” and have the passion to see young adults grow in their walk with the Lord - but they are also working through this transition of mission with grace. Frankly I don’t know how Matt has resisted going to war over some of the shot’s he and NIU have publicly taken. Matt has not asked me to do this - this is my own deal. I totally disagree with the angst over the direction NIU is headed. Frankly NIU continues to be refreshing. Here is what I like:
1. NIU understands that any strain that makes it within the fundamentalist mindset in the years to come will include “traditional” fundamentalists and “contemporary” fundamentalists. At NIU - no matter where you fall on the spectrum - you are welcome and encouraged to be a part of the campus family. You are valued and you are not beaten over the head with “non” or “extra” Biblical standards that cannot be verified within the text of Scripture. By the way - what I know about the music department at NIU is this - even when they try and do contemporary music - it is done most often with a traditional approach. Just because Matt took these students to this group’s music does not mean all of the music of NIU is characterized by “Big Daddy!”
2. As much as you might think otherwise - NIU is still conservative when compared to other Type B or Type C oriented schools. Of course they aren’t conservative when compared to Type A schools but my thought is the Apostles of the NT might not be as conservative when compared to Type A schools/fellowships/orbs. To say that if NIU or SVBC or any fundamental ministry uses some material or takes advantage of this or that ministry does not mean we are in total agreement with everything connected to that ministry. I am sure that NIU does not agree with every jot or tittle with those that might have been connected with Big Daddy Weave. Encouraging students in that environment to consider NIU is hardly a violation of ecumenicalism. Some of you are trying to make that stick and it’s not accurate.
3. I’ve said this one before - the only different between Matt/NIU and the other leaders/schools - is that Matt is simply being realistic and honest with his belief’s and the practices of the students in the schools. I am fully persuaded that if other institutions would reveal what 90% of students and facutly really listen too - there would be even a wider swing of music than what we’ve seen at NIU. Also - I would encourage pastors to understand that it is very unlikely that your students will have your taste of music - to undermine good schools such as NIU - just because you disagree with NIU’s music choice is going to undermine your students confidence in your leadership. Furthermore, if our 18 and 19 year olds have not been rightly prepared to think for themselves in the years prior to College in our homes and churches, then we’ve failed. I expect our kids at that age to be able to think for themselves on the question of Christian music, associations, etc…..that’s not to say I shouldn’t teach or guide but it is to say a degree of that is entrusted to those kids and their parents. A difference between Type B and C ministries is usually we have a higher degree of trust - Too often Type A ministries look down their nose at kids and with a patronizing tone try to dictate every legitimate personal decision. Frankly this is a common failure with the Type A mood, a partial or total abandonment of the implications of soul liberty and individual preisthood. Thankfully students looking for a Christian College won’t find that atmosphere at NIU.
4. Matt and NIU loves hymns! They love traditional music. They are not “anti-Type A music.” They are simply taking the right view that that genre of music while good - is not the only legitimate choice in music ministry today. So this view is a settled point at NIU. I agree whole-heartedly - this is a line in the sand that has needed to be erased for some time. To say you prefer one style is fine. To say you will jettison fellowship from a dear institution that is solid and God-honoring as NIU because of this is bizarre and hardly Biblical.
5. The practice of separation from the more militant approach within fundamentalism has not just been “off” over the years - it’s been sinfully schismatic! The assumption of Christ, the apostles and the rest of the NT writers was this - as long as a believer (or group of believers) love Jesus, preach the word and are committed to Christ’s Lordship, even though there may be differences, unless there is clear disobedience on the part of the other Christians the assumption is that we can have some level of koinonia. So, NIU and Matt (and other type B and C fundamentalists like myself) have determined (unlike our Type A brethren who are up in arms over NIU) to take “unity” at least as serious as “separation.” They (or we) have rightly concluded that just because a church or a fellow-ministry is not from our “camp” that that hardly means we automatically extend the right hand of “stiff-arm!” Frankly NIU is leading a kind of healthy approach to this question of unity and separation within what I call type A, B and C fundamentalism. So I say again - if you don’t like the balanced approach you see in Dunbar on a diversity of music and a wider cooperation with the ABC continuum, you have bigger issues than having one less institution to support - you are on the other side of the Biblical text!
6. One last word on institutions. This is no longer 1970 where the negative pontification of one or two or three significant leaders can call the death blow of a ministry. Thankfully young people and their parents are able to think for themselves as they check stuff out on line, as they chat directly with the school of choice. I would encourage those young people who are seriously considering Christian College and are not of the view that CCM is automatically wicked, evil, etc…..and are not of the opinion that the only orb God honors is the FBFI to consider NIU. I would also encourage those students who care as much for unity within in the body of Christ as much if not more than separation within the body of Christ - I would strongly encourage you to consider an education in Dunbar, WI.
Straight Ahead!
jt
- 7 views
…this is a line in the sand that has needed to be erased for some time.
Joel,
What are you talking about, “erased”? The line was never there. Northland hasn’t changed. They are standing where they have always stood, practicing what they have always practiced. So their public statements have said, anyway, and so information made publicly available would seem to be altered to make it appear…
Yes, I’m being facetious. But regardless on whether you support all the things you mentioned that they are doing as you appear to- how on earth can you not speak to the way this matter has been handled? Is there any possible justification for it?
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
NIU is leading a kind of healthy approach to this question of unity and separation within what I call type A, B and C fundamentalism. So I say again - if you don’t like the balanced approach you see in Dunbar on a diversity of music and a wider cooperation with the ABC continuum, you have bigger issues than having one less institution to support - you are on the other side of the Biblical text!
So says Dr. Tetreau, anyway.
I say there’s a difference between agreeing the Northland folks are our brothers and sisters in Christ and being willing to send my kids there to get their affections torqued (or recommend to others they go there for same). Northland can do as they wish; they are still fundamentalists under any realistic definition, so good for them. But I’m not walking their direction, and I don’t have to approve of what they’re doing, your assertions above notwithstanding.
Joel,
What about the doctrinal issue of cessationism vs. continuationism? This (to me) seems to be a major dividing line between fundamentalism and CE (as well as broader evangelical cooperation). Northland is currently ambivalent to that line/position. If they are unwilling to hold to their doctrinal statement on that issue, they should change it. Otherwise, their doctrinal statement loses all significance, and ceases to be prescriptive or descriptive of their institution. If they allow a faculty member who denies a certain portion of their doctrinal statement to remain - who is to say that they won’t open up their beliefs in other areas? What about six-day creation? Would they hire a theistic evolutionist? What about someone who denied (or redefined) inerrancy (or even worse, substitutionary atonement)? They must hold to their stated positions, or change them, or they have none at all.
For me and my house - one can be historically “fundamental” and not be a consistent cessationist, not believe in a literal 6 day creation (I will admit that I gulp harder on the creation issue than on the cessationist issue).
For me, inerrancy is directly tied to a fundamental of the faith so one cannot deny the authority of the Scriptures and be a historic fundamentalist. I would say we have the same violation with a denial of the atonement and/or inerrancy. I respect the views of my friends who believe anything other than a 6 day view of Genesis 1, etc…..is tantamount to “theistic evolution,” but I don’t think that’s right or fair. I also have dear friends who studied with me here and there who would say that any hesitancy with cessationism towards even “soft cessationism” makes one a charismatic. I’m hearing that with many of you - either Matt has exactly the same people you would on this or else he most assuredly is charismatic. Come on! That is also not fair and my word - many of you people graduated from institutions that were so dripping with pietistic mysticism in their theology and background - the hypocrisy is “Grand Canyon like!”
I’m not suggesting that our friends at Northland may not have to sharpen their pencil and address some of these issues that other friends are bringing up…..but I’m confident they will continue addressing these issues as they need to.
One last point - If you are in any ministry for any length of time, you have had to say, “We have not changed even though we have changed.” That is a reality of the road in ministry. We change - we improve - sometimes we go backward - we strive to move forward - but the nature in ministry is that we don’t stay exactly the same - we grow in our understanding here and there. Yet we stay committed to the same commitments of God’s Word and it’s authority in our life. I am very confident in both Matt Olson and the other leaders at NIU not to mention the student body at NIU that they continue to be committed to the authority of Scripture. It may be that as they run that through the analysis of what that looks like in this culture we live in today, there may be changes here and there. Clearly there are. So ….. I would say every institution does the same kind of thing - maybe not as obvious as NIU is right now - but these kinds of adjustments to the implications of doctrine in the context of ministry are unavoidable. So are the comments from those who disagree. It comes with the territory. My guess is Matt and gang counted the cost prior.
I know the deal on this - you count the cost, but it’s hard when you loose friends who you thought knew you better than they apparently knew you. I mean this is still the same Matt and Dr. O you all have loved over the years. There is no way they have changed that much in 18 months. My guess is - out of deference to a wider gap than was prudent, they continued to throttle some of these changes. Again my guess is NIU has come to the conclusion they probably aren’t going to keep a certain portion/mindset within a certain wing of fundamentalism happy any way, might as well charge ahead reaching out to both contemporary fundamentalists and traditional fundamentalists as best they can.
(Please Matt hasn’t said any of that to me - that’s just what my guess is. I am hardly the official statesmen for the institution - just a friend far away in the desert shadows of the Southwest.)
One more comment - I certainly am not saying you as a leader don’t have the right to disagree with me or Matt or whoever. You do, believe, preach, lead, influence the way you believe you must. Just now we all are doing the same thing. I will continue to have friends all over the board - most of my friends will be pro-NIU. A few of my friends will not be as pro-NIU. That’s fine. As we say in AZ, the stage coach moves forward!
Straight Ahead!
jt
ps - for the record - and for the sake of all that is heavenly - I continue to love all of you (being found of many of you - having warmth in my bosom for a few of you) and there is always a place around the SI round tabled campfire where at the end of each heated debate we embrace with Christian charity and a toast of ……. cyder.
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
[Joel Tetreau] I’m not suggesting that our friends at Northland may not have to sharpen their pencil and address some of these issues that other friends are bringing up…..but I’m confident they will continue addressing these issues as they need to.
I’m not at all convinced. Stonewalling seems to be their MO.
They should start right away by saying:
- Honesty is a pillar of our ethics and we have been less than transparent
- We have changed and we haven’t changed. We still consider ourselves fundamentalists (if indeed they do). Our doctrinal statement is unchanged.
- What has changed: We’ve modified our position on CCM … we no longer eschew and condemn it. We were wrong and we embrace our new position.
- About the staff member who is a member of a SGM church … this is the explanation ….. (and they will need to explain it because it doesn’t make sense to me). They could say …
- The staff member in question embraces without reservation the doctrinal statement of NIU
- The staff member in question is not in full harmony with the continuist positon of his church. He’s been clear about this to the leadership of is church. He intends to participate in this church for a brief period while he completes his PhD.
- If that’s the truth
One last point - If you are in any ministry for any length of time, you have had to say, “We have not changed even though we have changed.” That is a reality of the road in ministry.
Why? Why can’t you just acknowledge, “I was wrong”? I’ve had to do that on some things- for example, when I started using a Bible translation other than the KJV. Why the compulsion to put a “spin” on it?
One of the best pieces of advice I got when preparing for my ordination council was from Pastor Norm Hoag, a retired pastor who helped me prepare. He told me, “Don’t be afraid to say, ‘I don’t know.’” It seems to me that a similar idea would be appropriate here, if they believe their current position to be the right one: “We were wrong.” Left as it is, it seems to me they want the best of both worlds- which I would read to be their traditionally minded constituency, and their progressively minded current and potential students. Principle aside for the moment, it will be virtually impossible to satisfy them all, no matter how many pictures are removed, or webpages taken down. I seem to remember Les Ollila once being quoted as saying, “Be who you are.”
Seems pertinent to this situation, to me.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
So my dad went to BJ with Les,
Matt is a few years older than me but we’ve seen his leadership here in the West for decades prior to his departure to the Tundra land of Dunbar.
My point is simply this - you get what you get with these two. Stability has been their “mo!”
Many of you who have been in “our circles” (as much as I dislike that term) - know personally Matt and Les. Could their character really have changed over a 12 - 18 month period of time? They are going to go from solid and men of integrity to something else after a combined faithful lineage of 60/70 + years of ministry? Unlikely. I think too many of you are addicted to drama - you have this odd “soap opera” mentality.
Might there be things going on behind closed doors that none of us on the outside are aware of? If there is that would mean this ministry is a normal institution. Every ministry, especially of this size will have behind the door issues the leadership has to work through. Sometimes it takes years to come to a final position. When you are working through that, sometimes it’s better to keep the issues internal. Just me - I’m inclined to trust ministries that have been trustworthy. Northland has been trustworthy for decades and if they are going through some internal adjustments, I’m happy to give them the benefit of the doubt until they give us a clear explanation. To be clear, unless you are a pastor or a parent or a student, why do they owe any of you an explanation? I keep on saying this - If your curious call them! If their constituency needs more info, my guess is that’s just an email or a phone call away. A few more thoughts in response to a few things said here.
1. Over the years - Les and Matt have been careful to communicate what and who they are - internally and externally.
2. I’m confident that as they continue to work through whatever is happening on the “inside” and as they feel the changes are significant enough to warrant clear communication, I’m confident they’ll do that.
3. Greg - I’m sure these men have on multiple occasions admitted failure or occasions of short-sightedness. I’m confident that because they are men of honor they’ll do that if they have too. Frankly it’s not out of the realm of integrity for them to continue in ministry and wait until they have determined internally what and when they will share any “alterations” in mission.
4. In leadership one does not speak until one is ready to speak. If and when Matt, Les and gang need to share something with us - I’m confident they will.
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
Joel,
My point was not that they had a possible non-cessationist on faculty. The point is, that if they do, they are not in line with their own doctrinal statement. An institution that is not defined by their doctrinal statement is defined by … what? There’s no telling what will pass through their doors if they open the door of “exceptions” to their statement. I think that they would do better to either come out with the faculty member’s personal statement on the subject, release the faculty member, or change their doctrinal statement. The point isn’t whether they are actually a fundamentalist institution anymore. The point is that we don’t know what they are anymore if they walk away from what they say they are without actually telling us what they are.
And perhaps one of these days I’ll make it back home to the Phoenix area.
Joel,
Over the last several years, both Os have gone on record in writing insisting that nothing was changing, and yet, it has. They (the school as a whole, not necessarily either of these two men) have also placed information out there publicly and then removed it without explanation after it caused controversy.
I understand your sense of loyalty to these men. But it is past behavior and statements (like this one from 2009 or or this one from 2010) that, when paired with recently revealed innovations make it appear they they are spinning things rather than just being up front with how “the application” is changing. I have contended that there is latitude for their changes in application while still remaining “Fundamentalist. ” I still maintain that. What I don’t think is right is their hiding things previously posted, failing to be up front with changes (because even if they are only in “application” and not “philosophy,” they still impact supporters and students), and attempts to deflect controversy by insisting on personal calls and visits (more “spin”). What is there about these changes that can only be effectively communicated on a one-to-one basis? The nature of the delays (coupled with the removals and subsequent silence) make it seem that they are waiting to see exactly what the reaction is going to be before they make their statement- which make it seem much more believable that they are not acting on principle as much as they are trying to determine what is is people want to hear.
In leadership one does not speak until one is ready to speak.
In leadership, though, one also should not make major decisions without being prepared to defend them. If “they” weren’t ready to speak, “they” should not have implemented the application changes until they were.
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
good stuff, but the first link is dead (at least the article from Olson is)…
SamH
It was a Filings link to this:
Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN
Joel,
I genuinely sympathize with you about Northland and Les/Matt. First, Les has not been the president for approximately ten years. I think we have to credit Matt Olson with these changes, not Les. Les is a team player and he is doing his best not to undermine Matt or the school. The conservative element in the Fundamental orbit (I know how you hate “circle”) was very comfortable with Les and his leadership for several decades. I cannot speak for other conservative fundamentalists, but I am uncomfortable with the current direction of the school. As one relative of the Patz family made quite clear, the school is returning to the original historic fundamental roots of the Patz family who thought it was unheard of to ever separate from Billy Graham or the Baptist General Conference and that the school is intentionally pulling away from “BJU styled fundamentalism”. The administration is following their graduates, some of whom have moved into the evangelical world. Why don’t they follow notable and exemplary graduates like Mark Snoeberger instead? If they recently had Jason in to speak in chapel or class, then I have lost even more confidence in the leadership there. My point is that the change is much bigger than music alone, though I was shocked when I viewed the photos of the Big Daddy concert which said in bold letters on the stage, “Dancin’ with my Father in Fields of Grace”. What is that? Jesus is not my boyfriend. This is the kind of non-sense you end up with when you enter the CCM world with notable exceptions acknowledged. By the way CCM is not primarily when something is written, it is how something is being performed. Virtually any sacred song can be performed in a CCM style. Tennessee Temple tried this strategy many years ago; it didn’t work out so well for them.
Pastor Mike Harding
Mike,
My guess is they don’t follow Mark because they don’t agree with Mark here and there. I’ve disagreed with Mark on several occasions. They love Mark - I love Mark - who doesn’t love Mark? - as far as seminary prof’s/librarians go - he’s warm(esh), theologically “with it,” and I understand he even pastors now. That’s outstanding! It’s sad he’s a Pittsburg fan but with his hanging out with McCabe all the time, you knew that was coming - you know, “evil communication corrupts good manners.” I suppose that’s better than hanging out with Bill and becoming a Red Skin’s fan!
To your point, remember a relative of the leadership hardly means they speak with 100% accuracy on the direction of the ministry. That would be like depending on everything I have to say about the ethos and direction of IBC or completely trusting everything they have to say about the ethos and direction of SVBC or IBL West. I love them, they love me - but that would be unwise and probably not completely accurate on both ends.
Mike - there is a gap between what I would call consistent “Type A fundamentalism” and where the Billy “Graham/Converge” identity lies (which would be left of Type C fundamentalism and frankly left of main line evangelicalism). This is the same principle I’ve tried to help you and others within the Type A mindset. Just because we use some material or just because we are present at one function/ with a specific ministry - hardly means we endorse everything about that ministry. Are you really sure you want to publicly accuse Les and Matt with being a left than type C, left than conservative evangelical? That’s sad and maybe it’s telling - I am confident that NIU, along with the rest of fundamentalism is safely between those two polls.
As for prophetic guesses as to where NIU ends up. My guess is that this will not be a case like TTU or Pills….my guess is Northland ends up looking more and more like Master’s College. And MC in their music department does a fantastic job with both traditional Christian music as well as contemporary Christian music. My very good friend Christ Metras has been leading the music department at Northland over the last few years. Uh Mike - Chris Metras allowing “Jesus as my girlfriend” genre to be fostered at NIU is a stretch beyond human comprehension. You obviously know Chris as much as you know Matt or Les. The day “Jesus is my boyfriend” music is fostered and pushed by Chris Metras is the day Phoenix freezes over in July. Do you even know these people? Uggggg.
Straight Ahead Mike - My best to Mark!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
Joel,
You are probably right in your assessment. At least I hope that things will turn out as you say and not worse. Actually, I really hope that they will acknowledge some mistakes and return to what they represented when Les ran the school, but that is probably unrealistic at this point though not impossible.
For all the back and forth you and I have on these issues, I really enjoy your humor. You make me laugh. Keep up the sense of humor; it is one of your more redeeming qualities aside from your Don King hair and my Donald Trump hair. You would be a lot taller if you simply stood on my Trump wallet.
I said elsewhere that I don’t personally think NIU would retreat that far back into the evangelical world. I was not accusing them of actually having gone that far. Personally, I don’t think they will. Nevertheless, when you bring in Bible teachers who do not take a literal view of Genesis 1-2 and have administrative staff who are active members of SG churches, it shows a laxity on issues that could potentially become first tier issues as our friend Mark Snoeberger effectively argues. For illustrative purposes only (no allegory here), remember the the youngest son never intentionally chose the hog pen, he chose the path that led there. We as the King’s Mighty Men have to be careful not to give ground to the opposition (new evangelicalism or liberalism), even if the piece of ground full of lentils seems insignificant to some. That patch of ground belongs to our King and we need to defend it even if it means defending it against overwhelming odds.
Around the bend!
Mike Harding
Pastor Mike Harding
Michael,
I have nothing but the highest regard for you. I have always loved your integrity and at the end of the day that carries my view of you much further than any differences we might have. As for my hair you will be glad to know that at 44 soon to be 45 I am no longer fighting reality. I keep it short - like very short - like the hair people use a #1 on the sides and back and a #2 on the top. This means there is no longer a hair issue because in the main there is no longer hair.
God bless bro!
Straight Ahead!
jt
Dr. Joel Tetreau serves as Senior Pastor, Southeast Valley Bible Church (sevbc.org); Regional Coordinator for IBL West (iblministry.com), Board Member & friend for several different ministries;
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