Conservative Universalists Christians?
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We are in need of some help and perspective and hope you all can assist.
First, in the thread http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-statement-of-faith-eternal, I posted for some help on a Statement of Faith that is being written up and being put before the members, soon. The Universalists of this group are conservative in their beliefs. In that thread, Mr. Capoccia linked to this article http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/sbjt/sbjt_1998summer2.pdf, which pretty much describes this type of Universalism we have come across. I would add that the people we have met, also believe in evangelism and such, because of desiring a relationship with Christ, on this side of the grave.
So my big question is, can someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the only means for salvation, BUT also believes that after a set period of time in hell, the lost will then go to heaven, since they will now confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, can they be considered a Christian?
I have taken the stand that the people who hold to this position are believing in another gospel. They have taken the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ and applied it to ‘after death’, where we have no Scriptural basis for that. Other people in the group have maintained that people believing this way are in doctrinal error, but not lost. They would liken it to a Calvinism vs Arminian debate.
I understand why the Universalists of this philosophy are wrong, I have no question about that. My question is in how do we Biblically view these individuals who hold to this position? Saved? Lost? False teachers?
The ministry of this group, just to put this into greater perspective, is to minister to the elderly.
If you have any resources you can offer up, articles to read, etc. I would be most appreciative to receive it all. We have been at this since the end of October and it’s been a long hard process.
Thank you for your time,
Respectfully,
Carol
Edited to add, I think I fixed the links now.
First, in the thread http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-statement-of-faith-eternal, I posted for some help on a Statement of Faith that is being written up and being put before the members, soon. The Universalists of this group are conservative in their beliefs. In that thread, Mr. Capoccia linked to this article http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/sbjt/sbjt_1998summer2.pdf, which pretty much describes this type of Universalism we have come across. I would add that the people we have met, also believe in evangelism and such, because of desiring a relationship with Christ, on this side of the grave.
So my big question is, can someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the only means for salvation, BUT also believes that after a set period of time in hell, the lost will then go to heaven, since they will now confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, can they be considered a Christian?
I have taken the stand that the people who hold to this position are believing in another gospel. They have taken the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ and applied it to ‘after death’, where we have no Scriptural basis for that. Other people in the group have maintained that people believing this way are in doctrinal error, but not lost. They would liken it to a Calvinism vs Arminian debate.
I understand why the Universalists of this philosophy are wrong, I have no question about that. My question is in how do we Biblically view these individuals who hold to this position? Saved? Lost? False teachers?
The ministry of this group, just to put this into greater perspective, is to minister to the elderly.
If you have any resources you can offer up, articles to read, etc. I would be most appreciative to receive it all. We have been at this since the end of October and it’s been a long hard process.
Thank you for your time,
Respectfully,
Carol
Edited to add, I think I fixed the links now.
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I could not get the link to work, even by copying and pasting. However, the subject is quite interesting.
Some believe that C.S. Lewis was a universalist. I think Eastern Orthodoxy teaches something like the above — a “burning off” time in hell, but eventual salvation (not quite as creative as Roman Catholicism’s purgatory). As you said, there is no doubt that such beliefs are contrary to Scripture. And I think we can probably agree that we would separate from such beliefs (not allowing such teaching in our churches or working with such proponents in a group venture). Others, like John Stott, have gone so far as to teach annihilation of the lost (and thus not universalism).
But can one accept Christ as Savior (to be saved from sin now and a temporary hell) and still be saved? I think clearly so. The whole idea of salvation is primarily to be saved from sin and God’s wrath for the primary purpose of being reconciled to God.
I would love to believe that these evangelical universalists are right and that we are wrong. Unfortunately, Matthew 25:46 teaches eternal punishment (in contrast to eternal life). If one is temporary, so are both! Would that they were right!
Some believe that C.S. Lewis was a universalist. I think Eastern Orthodoxy teaches something like the above — a “burning off” time in hell, but eventual salvation (not quite as creative as Roman Catholicism’s purgatory). As you said, there is no doubt that such beliefs are contrary to Scripture. And I think we can probably agree that we would separate from such beliefs (not allowing such teaching in our churches or working with such proponents in a group venture). Others, like John Stott, have gone so far as to teach annihilation of the lost (and thus not universalism).
But can one accept Christ as Savior (to be saved from sin now and a temporary hell) and still be saved? I think clearly so. The whole idea of salvation is primarily to be saved from sin and God’s wrath for the primary purpose of being reconciled to God.
I would love to believe that these evangelical universalists are right and that we are wrong. Unfortunately, Matthew 25:46 teaches eternal punishment (in contrast to eternal life). If one is temporary, so are both! Would that they were right!
"The Midrash Detective"
Pastor Vasicek,
Thank you for weighing in on this matter. I’m sorry those links are not working, I’m not sure why that is. The original thread is in the Theology section of the forum.
I guess I am trying to understand, at what point in time does a person become a false teacher, when they are teaching something contrary to what Christ clearly taught?
If you are able to help me grasp this, I would be very grateful!
To be clear, we have separated from that ministry for now. Finding out about the two who believe in Universalism was a shock for everyone. It was when we became aware of this, we asked for the statement of faith and looked more closely at the mission statement. This has caused division, I’m afraid. That was not what we wanted, but we could not stand by and see false teaching be allowed.
My understanding of Scripture puts anyone who believes this way into a false teacher/deceiver camp and I don’t know how to get around that at this point in time.
Respectfully,
Carol
ps I think these links will work now, at least I hope they do. :)
http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-statement-of-faith-eternal
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/sbjt/sbjt_1998summer2.pdf
Thank you for weighing in on this matter. I’m sorry those links are not working, I’m not sure why that is. The original thread is in the Theology section of the forum.
But can one accept Christ as Savior (to be saved from sin now and a temporary hell) and still be saved? I think clearly so. The whole idea of salvation is primarily to be saved from sin and God’s wrath for the primary purpose of being reconciled to God.If one holds to this thought, on their own, maybe I would be able to accept that. However, these people are sharing it with others and it is causing a problem. Does this not put them into a false teacher category or not? Once you become a parent and you start teaching your children these things, does that not make you a false teacher?
I guess I am trying to understand, at what point in time does a person become a false teacher, when they are teaching something contrary to what Christ clearly taught?
If you are able to help me grasp this, I would be very grateful!
To be clear, we have separated from that ministry for now. Finding out about the two who believe in Universalism was a shock for everyone. It was when we became aware of this, we asked for the statement of faith and looked more closely at the mission statement. This has caused division, I’m afraid. That was not what we wanted, but we could not stand by and see false teaching be allowed.
My understanding of Scripture puts anyone who believes this way into a false teacher/deceiver camp and I don’t know how to get around that at this point in time.
Respectfully,
Carol
ps I think these links will work now, at least I hope they do. :)
http://sharperiron.org/forum/thread-statement-of-faith-eternal
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/sbjt/sbjt_1998summer2.pdf
Dear Carol,
IMO, you are right to separate from these conservative universalists. We can regard them as brothers, but their teaching is contrary to the plain sense of Scripture. It can be hard to make a judgment call between the confusing or less important (I would put the rapture question in that category) and the clear, blatant, and obvious. Since Jesus spoke of hell about as much as he spoke of heaven, we cannot simply shrug off a brother who denies an eternal hell.
”
Just as we separate from truly saved people (at least in our opinion) who believe the Bible is mostly true but deny inerrancy, so we must not allow such teachings to be propagated in our churches, nor should we join a church with such beliefs. I would personally limit my fellowship, though I would not necessarily be harsh with them.
False teaching is not a “one size fits all” category, so I myself advocate graduated and varied forms of separation. I still read and recommend John Stott’s commentaries, for example, even though he believes in annihilation (at least the lost have eternal consequences in his scheme, but then again no misery). I think these sorts of beliefs are on the rise as evangelicalism begins spawning a new version of liberalism, a doctrine at a time (which is what makes it different from the traditional liberalism of the early 20th century that tended to deny ALL the fundamentals).
IMO, you are right to separate from these conservative universalists. We can regard them as brothers, but their teaching is contrary to the plain sense of Scripture. It can be hard to make a judgment call between the confusing or less important (I would put the rapture question in that category) and the clear, blatant, and obvious. Since Jesus spoke of hell about as much as he spoke of heaven, we cannot simply shrug off a brother who denies an eternal hell.
”
Just as we separate from truly saved people (at least in our opinion) who believe the Bible is mostly true but deny inerrancy, so we must not allow such teachings to be propagated in our churches, nor should we join a church with such beliefs. I would personally limit my fellowship, though I would not necessarily be harsh with them.
False teaching is not a “one size fits all” category, so I myself advocate graduated and varied forms of separation. I still read and recommend John Stott’s commentaries, for example, even though he believes in annihilation (at least the lost have eternal consequences in his scheme, but then again no misery). I think these sorts of beliefs are on the rise as evangelicalism begins spawning a new version of liberalism, a doctrine at a time (which is what makes it different from the traditional liberalism of the early 20th century that tended to deny ALL the fundamentals).
"The Midrash Detective"
“So my big question is, can someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the only means for salvation, BUT also believes that after a set period of time in hell, the lost will then go to heaven, since they will now confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, can they be considered a Christian?
I have taken the stand that the people who hold to this position are believing in another gospel. They have taken the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ and applied it to ‘after death’, where we have no Scriptural basis for that. Other people in the group have maintained that people believing this way are in doctrinal error, but not lost. They would liken it to a Calvinism vs Arminian debate.
I understand why the Universalists of this philosophy are wrong, I have no question about that. My question is in how do we Biblically view these individuals who hold to this position? Saved? Lost? False teachers?”
Thoughtful point Carol. I have wondered about that too. I’m thankful that God is their judge not me.
[Carol K]The problem, here, is attempting to qualify any and all who might be persuaded by this view, as unsaved without regard to the time, place or nature of their own faith. The bible goes as far as declaring that believers can and do act as agents of the Evil One or enemies of the cross at varying times and in varying ways. The issue, as well, is not determining whether they are believers or not but whether they are appropriate for fellowship (which always has in view the beliefs and practices of that person or group).
So my big question is, can someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the only means for salvation, BUT also believes that after a set period of time in hell, the lost will then go to heaven, since they will now confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, can they be considered a Christian?
I have taken the stand that the people who hold to this position are believing in another gospel. They have taken the redemptive blood of Jesus Christ and applied it to ‘after death’, where we have no Scriptural basis for that. Other people in the group have maintained that people believing this way are in doctrinal error, but not lost. They would liken it to a Calvinism vs Arminian debate.
Carol
So each case must be decided on its own merits seeing that you are qualifying these errant people as having a biblical faith regarding their own salvation, hence you are not free to qualify them corporately as not having been saved. Some may and some may not be saved.
It is rather common and very likely that in cases like these, many of these people have come to a saving knowledge of Christ and have, in their post-salvational indoctrination, come to an erring view through varying means. Rarely (if ever) do people learn of and are persuaded of such doctrinal positions in the process of their coming to personal knowledge and faith in Christ as Savior. Again, very often these are errant views taken up after one is born again. But I am not saying it is so in every case, again, each case must be examined on its own merit.
But you are right, that if one does communicate to others that after their physical death or after their ultimate judgment at the Great White Throne and are cast into what is described as a lake of fire for eternity, that after some period they can be rescued and turn to faith in Christ, they are communicating incorrect. And it might be fair to say that such a view implies something about the gospel that is not contained in the gospel, namely that it is available to those who have accepted to be judged on their own merits. But this view does not question or distort the person of Christ or the work of Christ in its essence to provide salvation. Rather it displaces the correct context of the gospel’s availability.
Mr. FredK,
I too am thankful I am not their judge. However, the Bible gives us guidelines in judging rightly those who call themselves believers. With that in mind, we have a responsibility to God’s Word, to walk faithfully to it, so that is why I am asking my question. :)
Mr. Alex,
While I agree, they do need to be taken into consideration on their own merit and all the circumstances, I must share, we have witnessed too many Christians unwilling to take a hard stand against this belief. Someone who is new in their salvation needs far more grace regarding this area then say someone who has been sitting in that positions for 30 or 40 years. In the case I was referring to, the parents are in that camp. They know their belief is not held by main stream Christians, though they worship in a main stream church. They are deceptive, through and through. As time has revealed these people are truly deceivers. God has allowed us to see things more clearly, day after day. God keeps giving us pieces to the puzzle, little bit by little bit. It would obviously be wonderful to have the whole picture in front of us, but for reasons only God knows, He only gives us one piece at a time.
If you see the deception in their actions, that is clear evidence to me, they should be avoided. Then you have the scriptures that deal with fellowship in regards to those that call themselves a brother and do these things…… 1 corn. 5:11
I must confess, through this whole process we see the whole ‘universalism’ or ‘second chance in hell’ as such a destructive, divisive philosophy that must be dealt with. Churches must equip their members for this. This false doctrine, false gospel is insidious, and it’s powerfully dangerous. We are learning of many people harboring this false gospel! More and more writers are taking on this stand, in favor of universalism, which has several different faces to it.
Knowing how to respond and to ‘judge rightly’ those who hold to these positions is crucial! Grace where grace is needed but correction where correction is needed and avoidance where it is needed.
If we believe in the true Jesus Christ, do we not want to share that good news with the people around us? How about the people who call themselves brothers and sisters in Christ? Do we not want to share in fellowship as we realize we have a oneness in Jesus Christ? Why is it, those who hold to the unbiblical positions, find they must hide it? Be quiet about it? Be deceptive about their beliefs? It’s because they know it is not right. If you have truth, you want to share it, not hide it.
If we have to hide the ‘truth’ of Jesus Christ, then I believe that in itself, is a warning sing and must be addressed.
Respectfully,
Carol…..who continues to seek answers in all this.
I too am thankful I am not their judge. However, the Bible gives us guidelines in judging rightly those who call themselves believers. With that in mind, we have a responsibility to God’s Word, to walk faithfully to it, so that is why I am asking my question. :)
Mr. Alex,
While I agree, they do need to be taken into consideration on their own merit and all the circumstances, I must share, we have witnessed too many Christians unwilling to take a hard stand against this belief. Someone who is new in their salvation needs far more grace regarding this area then say someone who has been sitting in that positions for 30 or 40 years. In the case I was referring to, the parents are in that camp. They know their belief is not held by main stream Christians, though they worship in a main stream church. They are deceptive, through and through. As time has revealed these people are truly deceivers. God has allowed us to see things more clearly, day after day. God keeps giving us pieces to the puzzle, little bit by little bit. It would obviously be wonderful to have the whole picture in front of us, but for reasons only God knows, He only gives us one piece at a time.
If you see the deception in their actions, that is clear evidence to me, they should be avoided. Then you have the scriptures that deal with fellowship in regards to those that call themselves a brother and do these things…… 1 corn. 5:11
I must confess, through this whole process we see the whole ‘universalism’ or ‘second chance in hell’ as such a destructive, divisive philosophy that must be dealt with. Churches must equip their members for this. This false doctrine, false gospel is insidious, and it’s powerfully dangerous. We are learning of many people harboring this false gospel! More and more writers are taking on this stand, in favor of universalism, which has several different faces to it.
Knowing how to respond and to ‘judge rightly’ those who hold to these positions is crucial! Grace where grace is needed but correction where correction is needed and avoidance where it is needed.
If we believe in the true Jesus Christ, do we not want to share that good news with the people around us? How about the people who call themselves brothers and sisters in Christ? Do we not want to share in fellowship as we realize we have a oneness in Jesus Christ? Why is it, those who hold to the unbiblical positions, find they must hide it? Be quiet about it? Be deceptive about their beliefs? It’s because they know it is not right. If you have truth, you want to share it, not hide it.
If we have to hide the ‘truth’ of Jesus Christ, then I believe that in itself, is a warning sing and must be addressed.
Respectfully,
Carol…..who continues to seek answers in all this.
Hard to improve on what Ed said. Carol, my comment re “judging” was only meant to say that it is a tough issue NOT that this false teaching deserves no attention. OK?
Sadly it is not a new issue. It reminds me of the RCC’s “pergatory.” It is grevious to watch evngl. slide into liberalism.
Peace and joy :)
Sadly it is not a new issue. It reminds me of the RCC’s “pergatory.” It is grevious to watch evngl. slide into liberalism.
Peace and joy :)
Discussion