Church facilities
What are the facilities like at your church? Do you worship in a chapel setting with pews attached to the floor, an organ up front, and stained glass windows? Or do you worship in a large all-purpose room that has removable chairs and platform, so that the space can also be used as a cafeteria or recreation room? My church has the latter set-up.
How much of a difference do you think a setting makes in regards to worship on a Sunday morning?
Also, what facilities have you used before your church had its own building? A church I attended during college met in an elementary school, and then found a location in a shopping center. A business school had been in that shopping center location, but they moved out, and when we moved in, we already had a large meeting room and several classrooms. It worked out great.
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We have the former option without the stained glass. I personally don’t think the setting makes a big difference. There are however extremes that I believe would be best to avoid. A run down building probably doesn’t reflect a proper attitude and neither does a decked out ornate building. These are just my opinions however.
[josh p]My last church had an older building with some repair needs, but we were a small congregation and didn’t have the finances to fix everything. I often worried if that would reflect badly on us, but I’m not sure what we could have done about that. We could only fix what we had the money to fix.A run down building probably doesn’t reflect a proper attitude
We have a church building where the walls are drywall, the windows are regular windows (not stained glass), there’s a platform that’s about five steps up from the floor where the pulpit and a few chairs are, and the piano is on the left of the pulpit. Pretty standard traditional Baptist church layout, really. The sound booth is along the back wall (elevated). As far as the seating goes, we have padded chairs that are interlocking, and we set them up facing the pulpit, in four sections, with five aisles. They look kind of like these chairs but they are blue of course, because everybody knows that Jesus wore a blue sash. ;-)
To clarify: our church is somewhat old and outdated. There is probably something to be said for updating things. We also have a very small congregation (60) so it makes it hard to get things accomplished.
[josh p]My church was even smaller than that. I do remember, though, that one summer we had a youth group from another church help us out for a week. They camped out at a local park, ran a Vacation Bible Time program in the evenings, and spent the days painting the church and doing landscaping work. They were a real blessing.To clarify: our church is somewhat old and outdated. There is probably something to be said for updating things. We also have a very small congregation (60) so it makes it hard to get things accomplished.
Sunday meeting are not primarily for worship. Please understand: we worship when we allow the Spirit to control our lives in everything we say and do. Yes, we worship in the Spirit in assembly but mainly we should think of the Sunday gathering as one of schooling. Jesus and Paul both used the synagogue meetings as a place for ministry and the weekly Christian gathering is similar to what the Jews did in synagogue: reading the scriptures and explaining them.
Christians in assembly however are able to proclaim Christ by their observance of the Lord’s Supper, so this is a step up over the synagogue. So the service should be one where individual Christians may assert their stand for Christ publicly (like baptism) by partaking of the elements in the LS. While everything should be done decently and in order, we should not think that when everything has been orderly, that God was necessarily present. We do not want to just “play church”.
God is not served by human hands, instead He wants to give us a blessing when we gather together. Just as in the OT: one will chase a 1000, and two will chase 10,000. By being together as Christians, God can bless us exponentially, I believe. Also, we should remember: it is more blessed to give than receive. The greatest will be servant to the most so we should try to outdo each other in some sense by being deferential in a godly manner.
Worship is everyday in the choices we make how to live our lives. We don’t wait for Sunday for an opportunity to “worship.”
"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord. B.B. Warfield
[alex o.]Of course it is.Sunday meeting are not primarily for worship.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
Alex o, I LOVE discussions of semantics, such as whether I should have used the word “worship” in my original question. Of course, I never said worship ONLY takes place on Sundays, just as you are not implying that schooling can only take place on Sundays. I suppose a better word to have used was “ministry,” since a setting can potentially affect any aspect of ministry. Some settings are more convenient than others, but convenience shouldn’t really be that much of a concern. Some settings can be more comfortable than others, but comfort also should not be much of a concern, though comfort may be more of a concern than convenience. If the seating is really uncomfortable, that can be an unnecessary distraction.
I have a question about this sentence - “While everything should be done decently and in order, we should not think that when everything has been orderly, that God was necessarily present.” Wouldn’t it be true that when Christians are gathered together, Christ IS present, whether or not things are being done orderly? How would Christ NOT be present in a group of Christians?
[Chip Van Emmerik]alex o. wrote:
Sunday meeting are not primarily for worship.
Of course it is.
Hi Chip,
“Corporate worship” doesn’t really spring out at me when reading the New Testament. Romanism, it seems to me, developed their ideas of gathering on an OT model of the temple worship of Israel. This was not at all similar to the synagogue which Jesus and Paul seemed to sanction as a model of weekly assembly.
There wasn’t a whole lot of singing in the synagogue or early church gatherings and I don’t see coming together to worship in the NT. I do see teachings, prayer, fellowship, reading of scripture, and remembering Jesus Christ-the Lord’s Supper.
Jews even today call the weekly synagogue meeting Shul. Schooling was a the heart of the weekly meetings in my view.
"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord. B.B. Warfield
Do churches today have Sunday services with as much of a “corporate” schooling aspect as the synagogues had? In the synagogues, didn’t they have interactive question and answer times as their main schooling framework? We mainly have the preacher getting up and preaching. If you see prayer, fellowship, Scripture reading, and the Lord’s Supper as being parts of corporate ministry in the church, why do you single out the teaching as the primary one when we don’t do teaching in the same way as the synagogues did?“Corporate worship” doesn’t really spring out at me when reading the New Testament. Romanism, it seems to me, developed their ideas of gathering on an OT model of the temple worship of Israel. This was not at all similar to the synagogue which Jesus and Paul seemed to sanction as a model of weekly assembly.
There wasn’t a whole lot of singing in the synagogue or early church gatherings and I don’t see coming together to worship in the NT. I do see teachings, prayer, fellowship, reading of scripture, and remembering Jesus Christ-the Lord’s Supper.
Jews even today call the weekly synagogue meeting Shul. Schooling was a the heart of the weekly meetings in my view.
[alex o.]Alex,Chip Van Emmerik wrote:
alex o. wrote:
Sunday meeting are not primarily for worship.
Of course it is.
Hi Chip,
“Corporate worship” doesn’t really spring out at me when reading the New Testament. Romanism, it seems to me, developed their ideas of gathering on an OT model of the temple worship of Israel. This was not at all similar to the synagogue which Jesus and Paul seemed to sanction as a model of weekly assembly.
There wasn’t a whole lot of singing in the synagogue or early church gatherings and I don’t see coming together to worship in the NT. I do see teachings, prayer, fellowship, reading of scripture, and remembering Jesus Christ-the Lord’s Supper.
Jews even today call the weekly synagogue meeting Shul. Schooling was a the heart of the weekly meetings in my view.
The problem is your equation worship=music. You create a non-sequitur when you state “There wasn’t a whole lot of singing in the synagogue or early church gatherings and I don’t see coming together to worship in the NT. I do see teachings, prayer, fellowship, reading of scripture, and remembering Jesus Christ-the Lord’s Supper.” Everything else you listed is also part of corporate worship, along with the music.
Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?
[Kevin Miller]Quote:
“Corporate worship” doesn’t really spring out at me when reading the New Testament. Romanism, it seems to me, developed their ideas of gathering on an OT model of the temple worship of Israel. This was not at all similar to the synagogue which Jesus and Paul seemed to sanction as a model of weekly assembly.
There wasn’t a whole lot of singing in the synagogue or early church gatherings and I don’t see coming together to worship in the NT. I do see teachings, prayer, fellowship, reading of scripture, and remembering Jesus Christ-the Lord’s Supper.
Jews even today call the weekly synagogue meeting Shul. Schooling was a the heart of the weekly meetings in my view.
Do churches today have Sunday services with as much of a “corporate” schooling aspect as the synagogues had? In the synagogues, didn’t they have interactive question and answer times as their main schooling framework? We mainly have the preacher getting up and preaching. If you see prayer, fellowship, Scripture reading, and the Lord’s Supper as being parts of corporate ministry in the church, why do you single out the teaching as the primary one when we don’t do teaching in the same way as the synagogues did?
Maybe we should do it more like the early church as in 1Cor. where “evaluation to what was said” (ch.14) featured part of the gathering.
What we should do today is really no different than what the OT folks did. Consider that only 3 times in the year all males were required to “appear before the Lord” at the temple. However, by design, the Levites were dispersed in Israel for the purpose of continual (maybe Shabbas) instruction. I see the local church in the role of what the Levites did instead of after what was done in the temple. The weekly gatherings in both the synagogue and church didn’t in any significant way try to copy temple practices. When the temple was destroyed, was there a call to do any of those temple practices in local assemblies? no.
I have thought on the nature of church gatherings quite a bit. I do not see “worship” as primary in the functions of the weekly gatherings. Yes, as I said, worship reflects everything a Christian ought to do, so there is an aspect of worship in the gatherings but to think that is the main purpose of meeting together, no, it is reading and instruction along with allowing folks to demonstrate their faith.
When Paul wrote to Timothy and said give attention to reading, exhortation, and teaching until Paul comes to visit them, this does not mean to do this for that one season while Paul was away. Reading, exhortation, and doctrine is what should characterize all assemblies. This is apostolic authority and warrant. Where would the worship warrant come from? In my view there is no worship warrant.
"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord. B.B. Warfield
Our church is currently talking about our facilities and whether we should do a facelift. When you walk in, it is neat and clean but it screams 1970!!! Of course, what is taught from Scripture should be of utmost importance, but we don’t want the facility to be a deterrent to some either. I’m curious what others think concerning the appearance of the buildings and their distraction level. Can it be a distraction? Does it give a bad impression that could somehow be a bad reflection on Christ? Or does it even matter?
[alex o.]I’ve never understood those instructions to Timothy to be about assembly functions. I Timothy 4:12 tells Timothy to be an example to the believers in word, conduct, spirit, faith and purity. The next verse tells Timothy to give attention to reading, exhortation and doctrine. Verse 14 tells him not to neglect his gift and verse 15 tells him to meditate on these things. I don’t see the assembly specifically mentioned. Do you have any other verses that might give a more explicit reading and instruction mandate for the assemblies?When Paul wrote to Timothy and said give attention to reading, exhortation, and teaching until Paul comes to visit them, this does not mean to do this for that one season while Paul was away. Reading, exhortation, and doctrine is what should characterize all assemblies. This is apostolic authority and warrant. Where would the worship warrant come from? In my view there is no worship warrant.
I can certainly see a Lord’s supper mandate for the assemblies, and I’ve often wondered if we should be observing that every Sunday or if once a month is fine. We also have a mandate to baptize, and the public nature of baptism pretty much demands an assembly. Which leads me to another facilities question. Do most churches have their own baptism tanks? My church does not have one. Once each summer, we have a Sunday service at a park, followed by a baptism in a lake, and then a church picnic. We have also rented the pool at the local middle school for baptism services.
A church’s meeting house should be kept in the best repair possible. Keeping the exterior properly painted and the roof in good repair, as best the congregation can, is a matter of having a good testimony to the community.
HSBC was built in the late 1940s and reflects the styles of the times. It is also an urban church. As such, the building has a main auditorium, a smaller chapel, and a full basement multipurpose room under the main auditorium known at one time as the Lower Temple.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
[Kevin Miller]alex o. wrote:
When Paul wrote to Timothy and said give attention to reading, exhortation, and teaching until Paul comes to visit them, this does not mean to do this for that one season while Paul was away. Reading, exhortation, and doctrine is what should characterize all assemblies. This is apostolic authority and warrant. Where would the worship warrant come from? In my view there is no worship warrant.
I’ve never understood those instructions to Timothy to be about assembly functions. I Timothy 4:12 tells Timothy to be an example to the believers in word, conduct, spirit, faith and purity. The next verse tells Timothy to give attention to reading, exhortation and doctrine. Verse 14 tells him not to neglect his gift and verse 15 tells him to meditate on these things. I don’t see the assembly specifically mentioned. Do you have any other verses that might give a more explicit reading and instruction mandate for the assemblies?
I can certainly see a Lord’s supper mandate for the assemblies, and I’ve often wondered if we should be observing that every Sunday or if once a month is fine. We also have a mandate to baptize, and the public nature of baptism pretty much demands an assembly. Which leads me to another facilities question. Do most churches have their own baptism tanks? My church does not have one. Once each summer, we have a Sunday service at a park, followed by a baptism in a lake, and then a church picnic. We have also rented the pool at the local middle school for baptism services.
Vs. 11 shows Tim. had authority under Paul towards the churches. Vs. 12 likewise is toward others in setting an example. Vs. 13 makes no sense if others are not in view. How would Tim. exhort himself or teach himself anything? Tim. had the instruction and was commanded to propagate it. What Paul says is that these things should characterize assemblies and that when he arrives, he will teach them things as an apostle and direct them specifically.
"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord. B.B. Warfield
[alex o.]OK, Alex, now you have me a bit confused. Perhaps I need to ask you for a bit of semantic clarification regarding your use of the word “assembly.” I thought you were talking about the weekly Sunday gatherings based on this paragraph here:Vs. 11 shows Tim. had authority under Paul towards the churches. Vs. 12 likewise is toward others in setting an example. Vs. 13 makes no sense if others are not in view. How would Tim. exhort himself or teach himself anything? Tim. had the instruction and was commanded to propagate it. What Paul says is that these things should characterize assemblies and that when he arrives, he will teach them things as an apostle and direct them specifically.
I have thought on the nature of church gatherings quite a bit. I do not see “worship” as primary in the functions of the weekly gatherings. Yes, as I said, worship reflects everything a Christian ought to do, so there is an aspect of worship in the gatherings but to think that is the main purpose of meeting together, no, it is reading and instruction along with allowing folks to demonstrate their faith.
You then used 2 Timothy 4:13 to show support of reading and instruction for the assemblies. Were you using “assemblies” to talk about the weekly gatherings or about church life in general throughout the whole week? I see the surrounding verses to be instructing Timothy to be an example throughout the whole week, not just during the weekly assemblies. He was going to be reading and instructing throughout the whole week, not just during the weekly assemblies. It seems to me that you have been making a specific point about what weekly gatherings should be like, and I don’t see 2 Tim 4 actually creating instructions for the weekly gatherings, so I wanted to know if you knew of any verses that were more specific about the weekly gatherings. You said there is no “worship mandate” for the weekly gatherings, so you have me curious regarding what mandates actually exist for the weekly gatherings.
HSBC’s current meeting house was built with some features others may adopt to enhance their ministry.
- A “studio” caretaker’s apartment. (HSBC for years has had an overnight presence on the property)
- A Prophet’s Chamber with access to a kitchenette. This provides a Motel 6 type of accommodation for visiting speakers and others with ministry business in the area.
- A Church Parlor (Living Room) with a kitchenette. The Parlor has couches and upholstered chairs. It’s used for group meetings, on on one discipleship, and counseling.
The leadership in the 40s put some real thought into the building.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
This type of facility can be an asset in many ways. It’s not only great for visiting speakers and missionaries, but also as a gesture of hospitality to travelers that you know. Especially with a stocked refrigerator!
"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan
And more than one couple honeymooning in San Francisco.
[Ron Bean]This type of facility can be an asset in many ways. It’s not only great for visiting speakers and missionaries, but also as a gesture of hospitality to travelers that you know. Especially with a stocked refrigerator!
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
[Rob Fall]Would just the pastor get to decide which couples can stay in the prophet’s chamber, or would any church member be able to have travelers stay there? I suppose some sort of church guidelines would have to be set up regarding the use of church facilities by non-church members.And more than one couple honeymooning in San Francisco.
Ron Bean wrote:
This type of facility can be an asset in many ways. It’s not only great for visiting speakers and missionaries, but also as a gesture of hospitality to travelers that you know. Especially with a stocked refrigerator!
[Kevin Miller]alex o. wrote:
Vs. 11 shows Tim. had authority under Paul towards the churches. Vs. 12 likewise is toward others in setting an example. Vs. 13 makes no sense if others are not in view. How would Tim. exhort himself or teach himself anything? Tim. had the instruction and was commanded to propagate it. What Paul says is that these things should characterize assemblies and that when he arrives, he will teach them things as an apostle and direct them specifically.
OK, Alex, now you have me a bit confused. Perhaps I need to ask you for a bit of semantic clarification regarding your use of the word “assembly.” I thought you were talking about the weekly Sunday gatherings based on this paragraph here:
I have thought on the nature of church gatherings quite a bit. I do not see “worship” as primary in the functions of the weekly gatherings. Yes, as I said, worship reflects everything a Christian ought to do, so there is an aspect of worship in the gatherings but to think that is the main purpose of meeting together, no, it is reading and instruction along with allowing folks to demonstrate their faith.
You then used 2 Timothy 4:13 to show support of reading and instruction for the assemblies. Were you using “assemblies” to talk about the weekly gatherings or about church life in general throughout the whole week? I see the surrounding verses to be instructing Timothy to be an example throughout the whole week, not just during the weekly assemblies. He was going to be reading and instructing throughout the whole week, not just during the weekly assemblies. It seems to me that you have been making a specific point about what weekly gatherings should be like, and I don’t see 2 Tim 4 actually creating instructions for the weekly gatherings, so I wanted to know if you knew of any verses that were more specific about the weekly gatherings. You said there is no “worship mandate” for the weekly gatherings, so you have me curious regarding what mandates actually exist for the weekly gatherings.
Well it helps if you were in the right book, its 1Tim.
Why don’t you put up why you think Paul is telling Tim. to improve his devotions and not instructing in ministry?
Even if Tim. was instructing pastors during the week, it would be the same toward the congregations also.
Kevin, a better argument would have been that everyone has a bible today and can read for themselves instead of going to church and hearing it read. You didn’t use this argument though, so I won’t answer it.
Anyway, you seem to have ignored what I said earlier about provisions in the OT with Levites and weekly gatherings. This is precedence along with the example of synagogue practice.
Additionally, most pastors understand 1Tim. 4 like I do and it is reflected in nearly all contemporary services having “scripture reading” as part of the order. I just think it should be more than a verse or two for many reasons. I’m done here.
"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord. B.B. Warfield
[alex o.]Yeah, I wrote I Timothy earlier in the thread, and I just wrote it wrong in the last post.Well it helps if you were in the right book, its 1Tim.
Why don’t you put up why you think Paul is telling Tim. to improve his devotions and not instructing in ministry?I NEVER ONCE said that Timothy was instructed to improve his own devotions. I’ve been saying all along that Paul’s instructions were for his ministry, but that Timothy’s ministry included more than just the Sunday assembly time. Do you really think that Timothy was just having personal devotions during the week and maybe training other pastors, but that his time spent ministering to believers was only on Sundays?Even if Tim. was instructing pastors during the week, it would be the same toward the congregations also.
Anyway, you seem to have ignored what I said earlier about provisions in the OT with Levites and weekly gatherings. This is precedence along with the example of synagogue practice.No, I didn’t ignore these. i just didn’t consider precedents and examples to be on the same level as mandates. Understanding these precedents and examples can certainly be an aid as we plan Sunday gatherings.
Additionally, most pastors understand 1Tim. 4 like I do and it is reflected in nearly all contemporary services having “scripture reading” as part of the order. I just think it should be more than a verse or two for many reasons. I’m done here.I have no problem with Scripture reading and other teaching being part of the order. Prayer should also be part of the order. Colossians 3:16 tells us that even singing should be part of the order. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
[RickyHorton]Wow! The quibbling about worship just killed a good discussion!
Our church is currently talking about our facilities and whether we should do a facelift. When you walk in, it is neat and clean but it screams 1970!!! Of course, what is taught from Scripture should be of utmost importance, but we don’t want the facility to be a deterrent to some either. I’m curious what others think concerning the appearance of the buildings and their distraction level. Can it be a distraction? Does it give a bad impression that could somehow be a bad reflection on Christ? Or does it even matter?
When my wife and I first came to our current ministry, we went through the building and took notes on every room, jotting down our first impressions and ideas for updating it and giving the building a fresh look. In many cases, this involved nothing more extravagant than a coat of paint or an updated light fixture. There is only so much we can do to our 1972 building aside from major renovations which are not within the budget at this time, but I think that even small changes can give the place a more appealing look or remove things which might distract from the teaching and preaching of Scripture. Like an inadequate sound system, an outdated building can be a hindrance to the true ministry of the church.
Discussion