1Cor 1-7,11-16 (Dan and Andrew)
This entire post is copied from this post in this thread. Andrew wrote it there.
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Okay, then I think the best thing for me to do is show why I believe Paul is clearly saying that they have already ceased worshipping idols (be it heart worship or non-heart worship).
1) 1 Corinthians 1:8-9 He will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful; by Him you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul considers them to be brothers in the faith who are being progressively sanctified, will be ultimately glorified, and are currently in fellowship with Jesus. I don’t think Paul would say all that is true of them if they are also active idol-worshippers, especially in light of what he says in chs. 5-6.
2) 1 Corinthians 5:1-11 It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even condoned among the Gentiles— a man is living with his father’s wife… But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a reviler, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person.
Paul deals with public unrepentant sin within the church body from which they must separate. They must separate from the so-called brother who is practicing sexual immorality. He doesn’t speak to the one sinning, but to the members of the church who are associating with him. They must cease their association. To be consistent we must say that they must also separate from any so-called brother who practices idolatry. If there are any so-called brothers in Corinth who are practicing idolatry then they must not associate or eat with them either.
But Paul doesn’t treat the issue of eating meat or eating in the temple in chs. 8-10 the same way as he treats the issue of sexual immorality here in ch. 5. If eating in the temple is idolatry then those who do it are in the same position as the sexually immoral man here in ch. 5. But Paul treats them differently. Let me highlight the differences:
The sexually immoral man in ch. 5 :
a) isn’t addressed directly, Paul addresses the church not him,
b) is a “so-called brother,”
c) must not be associated with or share a meal with the church.
The temple meat-eaters in chs 8-10 :
a) are addressed directly by Paul,
b) are called “brothers,”
c) are currently sharing in the Lord’s table and are not prohibited from continuing to do so,
d) furthermore, instead of Paul telling the church members not to associate with the temple meat-eaters, he tells the meat-eaters not to continue associating with demons!
If Paul is really saying that the temple meat-eaters are committing idolatry, then he is not following his own teaching in ch. 5 of treating the sexually immoral and the idolaters equally by separating from both of them.
3) 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: no sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 Some of you were like this; but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Some of the Corinthian Christians “were” idolaters, but are not any more. Paul’s point here is that they are clearly no longer idolaters. Not only were they “justified” they were also “sanctified.” It would be contradictory for Paul to say “some of you were idolaters, but you were washed, sanctified, and justified… and some of you are still idolaters without realizing it.”
That’s the difference between the sexually immoral man in ch. 5 and the temple meat-eaters in chs 8-10. Paul calls one a “so-called brother” and the other a “brother,” he doesn’t address one as a member of the body and the other he directly addresses – he doesn’t count a person who is practicing sexual immorality to be a member of the body of Christ, washed, sanctified, and justified. And if another so-called brother is practicing idolatry then Paul wouldn’t count him as a brother in the church either.
The same group of people he address in ch. 8-10 is the group he is addressing here in ch. 6 where he says some of you “were” idolaters, but now you are washed, sanctified, and justified in Christ Jesus. Paul’s point here is that they are no longer idolaters so they shouldn’t associate with so-called brothers who are idolaters. If he were to turn around and say that some of you are still idolaters then it would completely undo his whole argument in ch. 5-6.
4) 1 Corinthians 12:2 You know how, when you were pagans, you were led to dumb idols— being led astray.
I’m going in order that the verses appear in the text, so while I think points #2 and #3 are the most significant #1 and #4 are also important.
Here Paul again makes it clear that they “were” led to dumb idols in the past, but that is no longer the case. It wouldn’t make any sense for Paul to be saying the following throughout the letter:
a) He will confirm you to the end blameless and has called you into fellowship with Jesus…
b) don’t have fellowship and eat with so-called brothers who are idolaters…
c) some of you were idolaters, but not anymore; now you are washed, sanctified, and justified by the Spirit…
d) some of you are still idolaters…
e) you were being led to idols back when you were pagans.
One of those doesn’t fit, does it?
It makes a lot more sense to say the following, especially when we see that both the immediate and larger contexts are talking about association:
a) He will confirm you to the end blameless and has called you into fellowship with Jesus…
b) don’t have fellowship and eat with so-called brothers who are idolaters…
c) some of you were idolaters, but not anymore; now you are washed, sanctified, and justified by the Spirit…
d) don’t have fellowship with idols by where and what you eat…
e) you were being led to idols back when you were pagans.
-APW
Andrew: 1) 1 Corinthians 1:8-9 He will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful; by Him you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Paul considers them to be brothers in the faith who are being progressively sanctified, will be ultimately glorified, and are currently in fellowship with Jesus. I don’t think Paul would say all that is true of them if they are also active idol-worshippers, especially in light of what he says in chs. 5-6.
Short passage, but a lot to discuss here.
Let’s start by clarifying one of your terms. You use the phrase “active idol-worshippers.” Do you mean heart-idolaters (TM-Eaters who honored the idol in their hearts)? Or do you mean Non-heart-idol-Participants (TM-Eaters who ate, not honoring in their heart, but participating with the idol/demon with their action of eating)?
Could we, going forward, use Heart-Idolatry and NonHeart-Idol-Participation? maybe abbreviate…
Well I don’t agree that Paul presents two different kinds of idol-worshipping. At the beginning of my post I said that my argument was against the interpretation that the Corinthian Christians were actively worshipping idols. I recognize that you make a distinction between heart-worship and non-heart-worship, but I don’t recognize that distinction in the text. My argument is the same whether you want to call their actions non-heart-worship of idols or just simply worship of idols. Either way you slice it, Paul is clearly indicating that they have ceased worshipping idols.
I thought I was careful to not call “participation” idolatry because you haven’t agreed that “Participation” is “idolatry.” Thus, the two category names I offered were: “heart-idolaters” and “Non-heart-idol-Participants” (Heart-Idolatry and NonHeart-Idol-Participation).
Well, I was going by what I thought was your previous definition of “participation.” I had thought that by “idol-participation” you meant “participation in idolatry.” If you mean something else, then you need to define your term. What do you now mean by “NonHeart-Idol-Participation?”
I see Paul’s use of the word “participation” as participating in eating and drinking, that is to say, “fellowship.” But I don’t believe Paul is saying that they are participating in worshipping idols (either so-called heart-worship or non-heart-worship), or that they are participating in the sacrificial ceremonies.
Ok. We’re not ready for this thread. Back to the other.
EDIT: Let me clear this up. The term I proposed for TM-Eating was NonHeart-Idol-Participation. I chose those words specifically to avoid calling it worship. I think it is in a sense worship - but you don’t. You say it’s association. We can agree that TM-Eating was participating because we agree on that much.
Definition:
NonHeart-Idol-Participation shall be defined as participation with the idol that occurs when one eats at the idols table, which isn’t heart worship and about which non-heart worship is not established.
Discussion