By RajeshG on
Forum category
Bible, Theology & Philosophy

Many Christians believe that all music without words is neutral or amoral. Some believe that all music without words is moral/good.

Many other Christians believe that all music without words is either moral or immoral, but not neutral or amoral.

What does Scripture teach about all music without words?

Poll Results

What does Scripture teach about all music without words?

It is not clear to me what Scripture teaches about this subject. Votes: 3
It does not address this subject. Votes: 10
It teaches that all music without words is either moral or immoral. Votes: 2
It teaches that all music without words is moral/good. Votes: 0
It teaches that all music without words is neutral or amoral. Votes: 0

(Migrated poll)

N/A
0% (0 votes)
Total votes: 0

Discussion

Fri, 02/01/19

It is very interesting to me that out of 6 people who have voted, not one person has voted for either of the first two choices. I would have expected that the results would have been strongly towards one of those two choices.

Sat, 02/02/19

In voting on the question in this poll, please keep in mind that this question does not merely concern musical styles, etc. It pertains to the entirety of the biblical data, which is much broader than narrower questions pertaining to musical styles originated by or played by humans.

Sun, 02/03/19

I took the liberty of posting this poll with the clarification in a Facebook group composed of active and retired pastors and received the following responses:

—It does not address the subject 24

—It is not clear to me what the Bible teaches about this subject 1

—It teaches that all music without words is either moral or immoral 1

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Mon, 02/04/19

[Ron Bean]

I took the liberty of posting this poll with the clarification in a Facebook group composed of active and retired pastors and received the following responses:

—It does not address the subject 24

—It is not clear to me what the Bible teaches about this subject 1

—It teaches that all music without words is either moral or immoral 1

These results are telling.

Mon, 02/04/19

May I ask what are these results telling you?

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Mon, 02/04/19

[Ron Bean]

May I ask what are these results telling you?

There is a major disconnect somewhere when 24 out of 26 pastors say that the Bible does not address this subject.

Mon, 02/04/19

is the Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptists I fellowship with with not play instrumental music for which the congregation isn’t familiar with the words.

Hoping to shed more light than heat..

Mon, 02/04/19

[Rob Fall]

is the Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptists I fellowship with with not play instrumental music for which the congregation isn’t familiar with the words.

The biblical witness concerning music without words is not limited to music that was used/is to be used in formal worship settings. When answering an all-encompassing theological question such as this one, the entirety of what Scripture reveals about the subject must be considered to come to a proper understanding.
About your specific comment, I would tend to agree that people in churches should be presented the words to instrumental music that is ministered in worship services.

Thu, 02/14/19

I think it’s an excellent idea for anyone who has sincere questions about the topic here to seek answers from a balanced, informed source which has demonstrated credibility. There are good and bad sources of information. We must rely on the Spirit and our good sense to give us the discernment to reject sources with dubious credibility.

There’s always more to learn!

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Fri, 02/15/19

What kind of music does your church employ? Is it Christ-honoring? How do you personally know whether it is or not?

John B. Lee

Fri, 02/15/19

[JBL]

What kind of music does your church employ? Is it Christ-honoring? How do you personally know whether it is or not?

My church employs music that nearly all independent fundamental Baptist churches used to have and many may still have. We do not use any CCM, CWM, etc. We use a wide assortment of instruments in our music: stringed, wind, and percussion.
We believe that our music is Christ-honoring. We would not use it if we had any questions or doubt about any aspect of it.
Answering your last question is not possible with a simple list or explanation. If you are interested in learning more, I have a vast number of articles that I have written on my blog that pertain to numerous aspects about what the Bible teaches about acceptable music for corporate worship.

Fri, 02/15/19

Now that’s a funny post. Anyone here use music in their church that ISN’T Christ honoring? Anyone? Surely SOMEONE here does.

We use CWM at our church with stringed, wind, and percussion instruments. Every week. But I would put a fair amount of hypothetical money on a hypothetical table that Rajesh believes his church’s musical standard is right and ours are wrong.

Maybe the real issue here is that I am not worried about remaining in the good graces of the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement. If so, it’s one of the better decisions I think I have made.

Give me a break on this music stuff.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Fri, 02/15/19

[Jay]

Now that’s a funny post. Anyone here use music in their church that ISN’T Christ honoring? Anyone? Surely SOMEONE here does.

We use CWM at our church with stringed, wind, and percussion instruments. Every week. But I would put a fair amount of hypothetical money on a hypothetical table that Rajesh believes his church’s musical standard is right and ours are wrong.

Give me a break.

I wonder why you are commenting on my sincere reply to a question that was specifically directed to me. Perhaps it may be because you are interested in inciting more problematic interaction on SI directed toward me. If so, you are not behaving in a Christ-honoring way.

Fri, 02/15/19

Jay’s reaction was to your response, not to your person.

This is just some advice from an elder.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Fri, 02/15/19

[Ron Bean]

Jay’s reaction was to your response, not to your person.

There was no problem with my response. I merely answered the questions that were directed to me. It’s telling that he did not direct his response to the one who asked me the question about my church’s music being honoring to Christ.

Fri, 02/15/19

At the risk of fueling this train wreck of a conversation, I will just note that JBL’s original post didn’t make me laugh and was actually quite good.

And as for this:

because you are interested in inciting more problematic interaction on SI directed toward me.

You should note that was my first post in this thread and that I haven’t bothered to vote in your poll either. Furthermore, I am not the one starting new threads on music every couple of days, and it has been several days since I bothered to engage with you at all.

I’ll duck back out now and do something more valuable with my time than engage with you on this subject.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Sat, 02/16/19

[RajeshG]

..numerous aspects about what the Bible teaches about acceptable music for corporate worship.

Rajesh,

Will you please list the passages you believe the Bible addresses acceptable music for corporate worship?

Will you please list the passages you believe the Bible addresses unacceptable music for corporate worship?

I’m not looking for a write-up of what you think the passages teach. I just want to see a list of where you think the Bible addresses either acceptable or unacceptable music for corporate worship.

Sat, 02/16/19

[Joe Whalen]

Will you please list the passages you believe the Bible addresses acceptable music for corporate worship?

Will you please list the passages you believe the Bible addresses unacceptable music for corporate worship?

I’m not looking for a write-up of what you think the passages teach. I just want to see a list of where you think the Bible addresses either acceptable or unacceptable music for corporate worship.

Joe,

Here are some key passages:
Acceptable music for corporate worship – Ex. 15; Deut. 32; Judges 5; 1 Chron. 15-16; Ps. 1-150; Matt. 26; 1 Cor. 14; Eph. 5; Col. 3; Rev. 5, 14, 15; etc.

Unacceptable music for corporate worship – Ex. 32; Ps. 1-2; Is. 5, 23; Ezek. 33; Dan. 3; Amos 5, 6; etc.
To have a proper understanding of this subject, however, requires treating not just passages that talk directly about music but also everything that God says about acceptable versus unacceptable worship. Especially important in this respect are key passages such as Genesis 4, Genesis 8, and Romans 12:1-2.
It also requires treating passages that do not even talk about either worship or music but pertain to the subject in other important ways, such as Genesis 3 and 1 John 2:15-17, etc.
Furthermore, there are other key passages about music in the Bible that also have to be treated to have a comprehensive understanding of what God reveals about music that is acceptable to Him, such as 1 Samuel 10, 16; 2 Kings 3, etc.

Sat, 02/16/19

Rajesh,

Thanks for the list of verses. From my review of them, I don’t see any where God calls music “acceptable” or “unacceptable” to Him. Perhaps you have more? I’ve read all of them and can’t see where God says the music was acceptable or unacceptable for Him.

Where does God say that there is such a thing as “acceptable” music and “unacceptable” in His revealed Word? If you can, please give us the list from the revealed Word of God, where God tells His people that some music is “acceptable” in their corporate worship and that some other music is “unacceptable”. Will you please take the time to do this?

Sat, 02/16/19

[Joe Whalen]

Rajesh,

Thanks for the list of verses. From my review of them, I don’t see any where God calls music “acceptable” or “unacceptable” to Him. Perhaps you have more? I’ve read all of them and can’t see where God says the music was acceptable or unacceptable for Him.

Where does God say that there is such a thing as “acceptable” music and “unacceptable” in His revealed Word? If you can, please give us the list from the revealed Word of God, where God tells His people that some music is “acceptable” in their corporate worship and that some other music is “unacceptable”. Will you please take the time to do this?

You reviewed all of those passages (including all the Psalms) so quickly and studied them thoroughly and pondered them deeply in such a short time? Obviously, at most, you did a very surface analysis of them.
I never said that you find in each passage that God explicitly calls it “acceptable” or “unacceptable” to Him. You are going to have to do a lot more study than you have done to understand what is acceptable to Him and what is not.
This much I will say to help you, but you are going to have to do the rest of the work yourself. My use of the concept of what is “acceptable” to God musically comes from an application to music of what passages such as Eph. 5:9-10 and Romans 12:1-2 reveal:
Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Now, it’s your job to study the passages and understand how the passages reveal what was accepted by God or what was not accepted by Him.

Sat, 02/16/19

Since Exodus 32 was one of the initial passages brought up for our consideration, I’ve been studying it for awhile and came to this conclusion.

The worship of the Golden Calf ends in verse 6 when the people sat down to eat and then rose up to “party”. As Moses concludes his undoubtedly long foot journey down from the mountain, law tablets in hand, he hears singing in verse 18. It seems to me that the singing is part of the debauched activities AFTER their worship of the golden calf and not part of their worship.

"Some things are of that nature as to make one's fancy chuckle, while his heart doth ache." John Bunyan

Sat, 02/16/19

Rajesh,

I think I asked for a list of passages where God, in His revealed Word, says music is either acceptable or unacceptable to Him for corporate worship.

Can you produce such a list? If you can, will you please?

Sat, 02/16/19

[Ron Bean]

Since Exodus 32 was one of the initial passages brought up for our consideration, I’ve been studying it for awhile and came to this conclusion.

The worship of the Golden Calf ends in verse 6 when the people sat down to eat and then rose up to “party”. As Moses concludes his undoubtedly long foot journey down from the mountain, law tablets in hand, he hears singing in verse 18. It seems to me that the singing is part of the debauched activities AFTER their worship of the golden calf and not part of their worship.

That is not what Paul says under inspiration of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 10:
1 Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
In commanding the Corinthians not to be idolaters (which mean to be “false worshipers”), he specifically cites Exodus 32:6. By doing so, Paul teaches us that their eating and drinking in a worship context what was sacrificed to the idol was part of their idolatry. By joining to that his mention of their subsequent playing, he teaches us that their idolatry also included their subsequent playing.
As I showed in my blog post, that playing included their singing.

Sat, 02/16/19

[Joe Whalen]

Rajesh,

I think I asked for a list of passages where God, in His revealed Word, says music is either acceptable or unacceptable to Him for corporate worship.

Can you produce such a list? If you can, will you please?

I already did. You need to study those passages to understand how He does so in those passages.

Sat, 02/16/19

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Sat, 02/16/19

That squishy noise you hear is the dead horse being beaten once again. Pay it no mind.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Sat, 02/16/19

Rajesh,

Why not just say, “No. I can’t produce that list of verses”?

Can we agree on this? God addresses all kinds of things in the Law of Moses - what His people can, and cannot do. Everything from how men were to cut their hair, how to segregate the crops in their field, how they must harvest their crops, how the fabrics of their clothing couldn’t be mixed, what animals to bring for what sacrifice, what kind of animals to not bring, what day to rest on, etc. On this I’m sure we agree.

And in the midst of all those commands, He never directly addresses music. He never says what instruments His people cannot use in their worship of Him. He never says what genres of music to avoid because those genres were used by the non-Israelites in their worship of pagan deities. If God ever says this, where does He do so?

Can we agree on this, that God never directly commands or forbids instruments, styles, and genres of music?

Sat, 02/16/19

[Joe Whalen]

Can we agree on this, that God never directly commands or forbids instruments, styles, and genres of music?

No, we cannot agree on this. God directly commands His people many times about what instruments they were to use in worshiping Him. The Law was not the only authoritative revelation that God gave His people. Every command given by God subsequent to the giving of the Law was as much His will for them as anything in the Law was.

Sat, 02/16/19

[RajeshG]

God directly commands His people many times about what instruments they were to use in worshiping Him. The Law was not the only authoritative revelation that God gave His people. Every command given by God subsequent to the giving of the Law was as much His will for them as anything in the Law was.

Three follow up questions:

1) When God gave those commands, were the instruments the Jewish people commanded to use in the worship of the true God, were those same instruments used by their pagan neighbors in the worship of their false gods?

2) Where does God ever directly address musical instruments, genres, tonal patterns, beats, etc, that His people were forbidden to use because they were unacceptable to Him in corporate worship?

3) Do you agree that, at least in the Law of Moses, God never directly forbids any type of musical instruments, tonal patterns syncopation, scales, or genres?

Sat, 02/16/19

No, we cannot agree on this. God directly commands His people many times about what instruments they were to use in worshiping Him.

Where is this command? Furthermore, how does the change in dispensations between OT Israel and NT church affect the command?

The Psalms record the use of many different instruments, and there are certainly references to music and instrumentation in the Bible, but where, explicitly, does God command the specific instruments that are to be used? And if there are such passages, why is it acceptable for your church to use wind, percussion and stringed instruments and other churches cannot?

It’s pretty clear, at least at this point, that the underlying presuppositions between Rajesh and (maybe) everyone else here on SI are such that there will never be agreement between us.

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

Sat, 02/16/19

These are some of the passages in Scripture that command the use of musical instruments.

Psa 33:2 Praise the LORD with harp: sing unto him with the psaltery and an instrument of ten strings.

Psa 33:3 Play skilfully with a loud noise.

Psa 81:2 Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery.

Psa 81:3 Blow up the trumpet in the new moon, in the time appointed, on our solemn feast day.

Psa 98:5 Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.

Psa 98:6 With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King.

Psa 147:7 Sing praise upon the harp unto our God:

Psa 150:3 Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

Psa 150:4 Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Psa 150:5 Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
There is much more authoritative instruction elsewhere in Scripture as well.
As for the other stuff, I have not made any claims here on SI and am not going to take the vast amount of time that would be needed to discuss those matters properly.

Sat, 02/16/19

Rajesh; what is your objective criteria for style? How do you define concepts like “holiness” or “reverence” with regards to corporate worship music?

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Sat, 02/16/19

[TylerR]

Rajesh; what is your objective criteria for style? How do you define concepts like “holiness” or “reverence” with regards to corporate worship music?

Sorry, Tyler, answering these questions properly would require the detailed exegetical treatment of a vast amount of Scripture. In the Spring of 2018, I taught a 30-hour Bible college class on Acceptable Music for Corporate Worship. Of those 30 hours, more than 20 of those hours were spent directly going through passage after passage throughout all the Bible. Even then, I only had time to touch on many passages and could not treat them thoroughly.
You are welcome to read through the many articles that I have written that pertain to these subjects on my blog.

Sat, 02/16/19

[RajeshG] In the Spring of 2018, I taught a 30-hour Bible college class on Acceptable Music for Corporate Worship. Of those 30 hours, more than 20 of those hours were spent directly going through passage after passage throughout all the Bible. Even then, I only had time to touch on many passages and could not treat them thoroughly

I’m sure it was a blessing

Sat, 02/16/19

Was you dissertation on some aspect of music on corporate worship? Of course, you don’t need to answer! I’m just curious.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Sat, 02/16/19

[TylerR]

Was you dissertation on some aspect of music on corporate worship? Of course, you don’t need to answer! I’m just curious.

No, not at all. My dissertation was, “Christ as God’s Judical Agent: An Important Element of Apostolic Doctrine and Practice.” Someday, I hope to publish a book based on it, but so far that has not happened.

Sat, 02/16/19

In the interaction I’ve had in the music debate, many anti-CCM advocates have taken the position of trying to define why a certain genre or style is ungodly. I really question that approach. I have found the pure biblical arguments for such unconvincing. The arguments against CCM from the standpoint that it’s too worldly, while possessing satisfying emotional appeal, lack logical consistency in derivation and application.

Furthermore, this strategy doesn’t solve the more important issue of what is actually honoring to God. Condemning CCM perhaps defines what is bad, but doesn’t positively identify what is good.

So where does that leave us?

Ministries need to articulate precisely what it is about their music program that honors God. This is analysis that Aniol comes close to doing that churches need to think through themselves. The end result will undoubtedly look different for different ministries, but at the very least we would be able to understand where people are coming from in their music choices and gauge the consistency of those choices with their music philosophy.

John B. Lee