Shamanism, Percussion, and First Corinthians 6:12

In addition to the information about the percussive aspects of shamanism in the Britannica article, other non-Christian sources confirm the importance of such occult musical activities in the practices of shamanists and other similar occultists around the world who engage in similar activities and practices, including two Wikipedia articles and substantive information in a non-Christian book about the spiritual dimensions of percussion all over the world.



It should be noted at the outset of this thread that there is no credible information that I know of that shows that any of these sources are the works of IFB believers who have been widely and wrongly accused of having a "racist" axe to grind against the popular musics of certain peoples.

Creating a more expansive definition, Winkelman (2004) defines shamanism as a “specific complex of characteristics found in magico-religious practitioners of hunter-gatherer and simple pastoral and agricultural societies around the world.”

Figure 2. The earliest known depiction of a Siberian shaman, by the Dutch Nicolaes Witsen, 17th century. Nicolaes Witsen based this drawing from experience of a stay among the Tungusic and Samoyedic-speaking indigenous peoples of Siberia. Public domain.

Winkelman’s use of the term ‘shamanism’ was not haphazard but derived from a meticulous statistical analysis. In his 1984 dissertation, Winkelman used ethnographic data from HRAF; statistical methods such as cluster analysis; and a coding system accounting for more than two hundred variables relating to ritual procedures, forms of induction into shamanistic practice, qualities of altered states of consciousness, spiritual power relations, and many more theoretically and anthropologically defined variables relating to shamanic beliefs and practices. More specifically, in his 1984 study, Winkelman used “a 47-society stratified subsample of the Standard Cross-Cultural Sample (SCCS)” that included societies “ranging from 1750 B.C. (Babylonians) to the twentieth century” while including geographic regions from all over the world (2010:50).

All said, a cross-cultural approach made it possible for Winkelman to empirically define shamanism by detailing the practices and relationships shamans create in each sampled society.

So what is it that makes shamanism unique among religious forms? Why are some religious figures considered by anthropologists and religious scholars to be shamans and others not? Shamans differ from priests and other religious leaders in several ways. In his extensive research Winkelman (2004:195) found that the shamans around the world all had the following characteristics:

• experience “ecstasy,” an altered state of consciousness (ASC) experience known as soul journey or soul flight
• use chanting, music, drumming, and dancing
• practice divination, diagnosis, and prophecy
• trained through deliberately induced ASC, particularly vision quests, and involving an initiatory death-and-rebirth experience
• spirit relations as foundational to professional capacities
• understand diseases to be caused by the intrusion of objects or attacks by spirits and sorcerers
• use therapeutic processes focused on soul and power animal recovery
• has animal relationships, including the ability to control animal spirits and transform into animals
• charismatic group leadership
• ability to perform malevolent acts involving sorcery
• magic to improve hunting outcomes

What should be plain from this source and from the previous source that I provided is that musical activities involving drumming, singing, and dancing are an integral part of the occult activities of shamans and shaman-like practices all over the world. This information from multiple sources that corroborate each other proves that such occult musical activities are a reality all over the world.



Consequently, consecrated believers must apply what Scripture reveals to this worldwide reality to rightly determine what they are to think and do concerning all such occult musical practices.

If one knows enough about the musical practices of shamans to know they use drums, one should also be aware that they use rattles.

I have not seen any information so far that emphasizes that shamanists use rattles to induce altered states of consciousness in order to have contact and interaction with spirits, but I have seen quite a few sources speak about how they use their percussive practices on drums to do so. In view of the teaching of 1 Cor. 6:12, consecrated believers must reject all such kinds of percussive musical practices as perverse occult activities.

Daniel 3:5 mentions a number of instruments being used in false worship. The people were given the command, "As soon as you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipe and all kinds of music, you must fall down and worship the image of gold that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up." Now, I believe those instruments were displeasing to God WHILE they were being used in false worship, but that evil use did not make the use of them displeasing in every other situation.

Bringing up Daniel 3:5 in this thread is not relevant because it does not have anything to do with the percussive practices of shamans or of any other occultists. In fact, Daniel 3 does not mention any use of any percussion instruments in what took place in that false worship.

A sentence from that page that I didn't previously quote says, "A certain rattle acoustic pattern can render a calming state with whoever seeks the shamans healing effect." So now you HAVE seen some information related to the induced altered state of consciousness that rattles can produce.

A calming effect is not an ASC (altered state of consciousness). Making someone calm need not necessitate or result in altering their consciousness.

I don't believe that God is only displeased with occult practices when they "induce altered states of consciousness."

So what? My point in this thread is that 1 Cor. 6:12 teaches us that the believer must not be brought under the power of anything, even if it were a lawful thing. The kinds of percussion that shamans use to induce ASCs in which he goes into a trance-like state and has encounters with demons is expressly a wicked practice. Because those kinds of percussion are occult activities, God forbids believers from even inquiring about those kinds of percussion, much less using them, experiencing them, or employing them in purported worship of God.

Daniel 3:5 was relevant to my point that just because an instrument is used for a displeasing purpose, whether it's an occult purpose or a false worship purpose, that doesn't automatically make all future uses of that instrument automatically displeasing to God.

This is merely your assertion for any instruments that are not specifically mentioned in the Bible whose use in worship we know God has accepted. You have to argue biblically for its validity.



Moreover, just because this is true for some instruments does not establish anything about its being true for all instruments without exception. Because you do not have any Bible to support that God accepts the use of all instruments in worship without exception, you have the burden of proving biblically the legitimacy of taking something that is expressly an occult instrument used in forbidden occult practices and showing that God will accept its use in worship.



Finally, my point in this thread is not ultimately about what instruments can or cannot be used in worship; it is about how 1 Cor. 6:12 instructs us that no use of any instruments that bring or even potentially bring people into ASCs in which they may have demonic encounters is in any way legitimate for a believer.

How do you know that the shamans calming effect doesn't alter, in some way, their consciousness? It seems to me that alteration of consciousness is something that happens on a spectrum, from slightly altered to fully altered, and I definitely wouldn't trust a shaman to "calm" me in any fashion whatsoever in order to "dispel nefarious entities" from me. I can't understand why you are trying to defend the occultic use of rattles.

I am not trying to defend anything. You are trying to make issues out of things that are not the point of my thread. You have no basis for linking the trance-like states that we know that shamans induce through their percussive use of drums with whatever calming things they might do with rattles. You have not even provided any evidence that even shamans claim that they have used rattles for inducing such trance-like states in order to have encounters with demons and receive information from them and have the demons transport them in the ways that shamans say happens in their trances induced by their drumming, etc.

I think there is an incredibly vast difference between accompanying a worship song on a Sunday morning and practicing an occult ritual. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Not even that, it's more like comparing apples to sandpaper.

So what if you think this way. Prove your claim from the Bible and show that God has ever accepted people taking wicked things and practices of the occult and bringing them into divine worship.

Be serious, Rajesh. Drumming a drum is not an "occult practice" unless one is doing it as part of an actual occult practice. Occult practitioners play the flute as well. Does that fact make playing the flute an occult practice during divine worship?

You know very well that this is not what I am saying. I am saying that there are occult kinds of drumming that are forbidden to God's people. I never have said any and all uses of drums are unacceptable.

And you haven't argued biblically that any instruments are forbidden for use by believers. Using any instrument in an occult practice is forbidden, but if I am not using an instrument in an occult practice, what biblical warrant do you have to say an instrument cannot be used in worship of God?

My statements in this thread have not been about "any instruments [that] are forbidden for use by believers." I have repeatedly said that there are occult kinds of playing percussion that are forbidden for believers.



Having said that, I have said elsewhere and continue to say that the use of skull drums made from real human skulls (as some indigenous Tibetan occultists do) is an abomination that is forbidden for believers, regardless of any and all other considerations.

And you have come pretty close to saying that any and all uses of drums are unacceptable. That's the impression I got when you told me "you have the burden of proving biblically the legitimacy of taking something that is expressly an occult instrument used in forbidden occult practices and showing that God will accept its use in worship." Were you not talking about drums in that sentence, or were you referring to some other instrument that you think of as "expressly an occult instrument."? Or were you saying that this unnamed "expressly occult instrument" is only forbidden when used in worship, but it's okay to use at other times?

No, I have not. This is a false claim. Skull drums made from real human skulls are expressly occult instruments that are an abomination. You have the burden of proof from Scripture to show that the use of such wicked objects that are a desecration of the image of God in man are acceptable to God for any use in any setting, least of all the worship of an infinitely holy God.

It is you, JD, who is rude by seeking to turn this thread into a different discussion than the one that I began the thread with. I provided a very legitimate subject for discussion. If you do not wish to discuss that subject, you are free to start other discussions on whatever subjects interest you.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.



Comparing these two passages and applying them to the realm of shamanism and its occult percussive practices underscores the importance of the complete rejection of all of its occult percussive practices.



Those who seek encounters with demons through the occult percussive practices of shamanism willfully put themselves into situations whereby they seek to be brought under the power of demons. Such people are taken captive by the devil and his demons at the will of Satan and his demons.



Obviously, all such occult percussive practices are a violation of many biblical teachings, especially 1 Cor. 6:12.

Christians do not have any liberty to disregard divine prohibitions against fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).



Furthermore, anything that is not lawful, expedient, and edifying cannot be used acceptably to God in Christian worship.

The Bible never teaches that all kinds of percussion are lawful, expedient, and edifying. In fact, the Bible explicitly says that even for all lawful things, not all things are expedient, and not all edify.

Those who want to claim, therefore, that all occult kinds of percussion are lawful, expedient, and edifying must prove from Scripture that is true in order to validly claim that God's prohibitions against the occult do not apply to those occult kinds of percussion.

Every one of these threads comes down to burden of proof. If the scriptures give neither command nor prohibition, then neither side can prove his case.

So eventually these all come down to a discussion of burden of proof.

But that is also beyond our capacity to persuade. We are left to each be satisfied in our own minds.

I disagree. Establishing what is true is not limited only to what is commanded or prohibited. When God makes universal statements about what is and is not true, those who deny what those statements say or claim that those statements do not apply to particular realms have to prove their position biblically.



Paul twice inerrantly teaches that not all lawful things are expedient (1 Cor. 6:12; 10:23). He also teaches inerrantly that not all lawful things edify (1 Cor. 10:23).

Anyone who claims that all kinds of music, however, are lawful, expedient, and edifying speaks against what Paul says. If he wants to claim that what Paul says does not apply to the realm of musical instruments and all kinds of music produced with them, he must prove what he claims, and he must do so with direct teaching of Scripture.

There is zero biblical justification for holding that all kinds of music, musical instruments, percussion, etc. are lawful, expedient, and edifying. The right biblical doctrinal position, therefore, is that there are kinds of music, etc. that are not acceptable to God for use in corporate worship because they are not lawful, expedient, and edifying.

That article goes on to say, "Not only was rhythm a big deal for ancient shamans, but melody, harmony and music played a huge role in shamanic healing. Shamans believed that certain melodic scales had healing properties. In fact, ancient Siberian records reveal that the key of C was considered a champion in terms of aligning the human body. This open key was known to create homeostasis with blood flow, organs and spiritual balance.

Reading again through the article that this information comes from, I am interested in probing this claim concerning ancient Siberian records that supposedly "reveal that the key of C was considered a champion in terms of aligning the human body." Unfortunately, the source does not provide any documentation for any of these statements.



In my research so far, all I have found is that the concept of musical keys seems to go back to the 1500s? The claim, therefore, that ancient Siberian shamans knew about the concept of musical keys appears to be an untenable claim.

If, however, a person were to believe that the teachings of occult practitioners are completely authentic, true, and reliable, then that person would have to deal with the ungodly way the key of C is used in occult practices and warn others against the use of this occult key in corporate worship.

Many kinds of music can be played in the key of C and not have any other similarity to whatever kinds of music the ancient Siberian shamanists played in ungodly ways supposedly in the key of C. Unless you have factual evidence proving that everyone else learned about playing all the kinds of music in the key of C that they have ever played in any way from those shamanists, this information has no legitimate bearing on the use of the key of C in godly music that is played in godly ways.

Could one find biblical justification for saying that the use of every key is lawful, expedient, and edifying?

I have not made any such claim. Having said that, if someone wants to show that one or more keys are not one or more of these things, he has to provide some valid rationale.

Is this the criteria for something being displeasing to God, that people have to learn the displeasing music directly from occultists? I'm sure that most all the people playing percussion in corporate worship would tell you that they haven't learned their music from an occultist.

No, having to learn something directly from occultists is not "the" criteria . . . Many have learned things from others who learned those things from other evil people who learned it from others who learned it from others who learned it from occultists, etc.

Now substitute "keyof C" with "drums" and you will understand what we have been saying from the start.

Many kinds of music can be played in the key of C with drums and not have any other similarity to whatever kinds of music the ancient Siberian shamanists played in ungodly ways supposedly in the key of C on drums. Unless you have factual evidence proving that everyone else learned about playing all the kinds of music in the key of C on drums that they have ever played in any way from those shamanists, this information has no legitimate bearing on the use of the key of C drums in godly music that is played in godly ways.

You are misinformed. I have never said anything about all uses of drums in all kinds of music being unacceptable. I have even previously said that my church uses certain percussion instruments in certain ways to play certain kinds of music on occasion in our worship services.



Disobedient Christians have brought unacceptable kinds of music from occultists into corporate worship, including unacceptable uses of percussion instruments.

It occurs to me that if you are going to describe music in the "game of telephone" sort of way, then the end product is not really the same occult music any more. It's been altered, adjusted, changed, modified, revised and refashioned over time depending on what use people have for that particular music.

The Bible does not support anywhere in any way this notion that unacceptable things of the occult are to be dealt with in this way.

Even new believers in Ephesus knew that they must destroy their magic books instead of taking steps so that they would have been "altered, adjusted, changed, modified, revised and refashioned over time depending on what use people have for" them:

Acts 19:18 And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. 19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. 20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed.