John MacArthur: "It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities"
This link: http://stustation.wordpress.com/2011/06/01/theology-at-the-pub/
The “Pub” in question is a well-known Irish restaurant in the Western Twin Cities: http://claddaghirishpubs.com/
It’s a great restaurant with a bar. I would say it is not fundamentally different than any Applebees (each which have a bar). Except the Claddagh has great food.
We’ve been there half a dozen times. Once we took a pastor and his wife to celebrate our anniversaries.
The Fusion group mentioned (http://www.newhopechurchmn.org/youngadults/index.php) is the young adult ministry of http://www.newhopechurchmn.org/index.php] New Hope Church (which is a fine church just about 1.5 miles from my house)
The “Pub” in question is a well-known Irish restaurant in the Western Twin Cities: http://claddaghirishpubs.com/
It’s a great restaurant with a bar. I would say it is not fundamentally different than any Applebees (each which have a bar). Except the Claddagh has great food.
We’ve been there half a dozen times. Once we took a pastor and his wife to celebrate our anniversaries.
The Fusion group mentioned (http://www.newhopechurchmn.org/youngadults/index.php) is the young adult ministry of http://www.newhopechurchmn.org/index.php] New Hope Church (which is a fine church just about 1.5 miles from my house)
As for the general thrust of the article including
I am in agreement
It is puerile and irresponsible for any pastor to encourage the recreational use of intoxicants—especially in church-sponsored activities.
Johnny Mac might want to include the words “in my opinion” since he doesn’t have any direct instruction from the Word on this. (Unless he wants to consider the wine served by the Head of the Church at the Last Supper.)
Dr. MacArthur’s last paragraph says
It should not take a doctor of divinity to notice that Scripture consistently celebrates virtues such as self-control, sober-mindedness, purity of heart, the restraint of our fleshly lusts, and similar fruits of the Holy Spirit’s sanctifying work in our lives. Surely these are what we ought hold in highest esteem, model in our daily lives, and honor on our websites, rather than trying so hard to impress the world with unfettered indulgence in the very things that hold so many unbelievers in bondage.
I can’t stand those peurile and irresponsible pastors like Luther and Calvin and the Puritans and the New England Congregationalists and almost all the other people who gave us historic Protestantism. And let’s not forget that peurile and irresponsible Person who commanded the use of an alcoholic beverage in the central act of Christian worship. (Some statements tell more about the speaker than anything else.)
Deuteronomy 14:22-27 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
Deuteronomy 14:22-27 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
I did not see where Dr. MacArthur opposed the use of wine for communion or for an annual tithe ritual.
JMac’s trajectory seems to be to the right. Brightens my day.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
If you don’t like beer, come to Southeast Idaho and Utah - the I-15 Corridor. Drinking beer in our culture is looked upon as a sure way of stopping your eternal progression toward celestial glory.
Placing his thoughts in context:
Dr. MacArthur is specifically addressing the new YF’s who are enamored with pastimes like cigar smoking and beer brewing, and pursue an expertise in these areas, to the point where it is a “badge of identity”. Also to the point of mocking and scorning those who abstain. Both are signs of imbalance and immaturity.
Real Christian liberty is not about flouting taboos and offending conventional notions of propriety…
But sober-minded self-control and maturity are virtues commanded and commended by Scripture; these are not manmade rules or legalistic standards. As a matter of fact, one of the main qualifications for both deacons and elders in the church is that they cannot be given to much wine. In other words, they are to be known for their sobriety, not for their consumption of beer.
Dr. MacArthur is specifically addressing the new YF’s who are enamored with pastimes like cigar smoking and beer brewing, and pursue an expertise in these areas, to the point where it is a “badge of identity”. Also to the point of mocking and scorning those who abstain. Both are signs of imbalance and immaturity.
I wonder if it’s wrong to have cigar smoking and beer drinking as a badge of identity, that it might be wrong to have teetotaling as a badge of identity as well. Our identity is in Christ. Flaunting freedom is wrong. Flaunting that you don’t flaunt freedom might be wrong too.
John MacArthur is exactly right. His words are sorely needed today.
God commands us to be sober (nepho, literally “wineless”) in 1 Thessalonians 5:6-8 and elswhere. That command should be easy to understand.
David R. Brumbelow
God commands us to be sober (nepho, literally “wineless”) in 1 Thessalonians 5:6-8 and elswhere. That command should be easy to understand.
David R. Brumbelow
Point taken, Susan. The best cure for young reformed church planters enamored by pubs or smoke-filled rooms is to put them in the I-15 Corridor. If they are thinking about how to win over their LDS friends and I Corinthian gospel contextualization, their lifestyles will not be concerned too much with beer and cigars.
But our constant cultural threat in the community is this: If you do not abstain, you are thrown off the gospel path.
And thousands upon thousands upon thousands are told to believe this. Can you imagine what Martin Luther would do or say just to spite the overarching religious hierarchy?
I see what MacArthur is saying, but I am simply making a sidenote on a very different burden.
Again, if the Church can’t get their young pastors out of the bars, just send them to Provo, Utah or Rexburg, Idaho. Their whole world will change.
But our constant cultural threat in the community is this: If you do not abstain, you are thrown off the gospel path.
And thousands upon thousands upon thousands are told to believe this. Can you imagine what Martin Luther would do or say just to spite the overarching religious hierarchy?
I see what MacArthur is saying, but I am simply making a sidenote on a very different burden.
Again, if the Church can’t get their young pastors out of the bars, just send them to Provo, Utah or Rexburg, Idaho. Their whole world will change.
I already highlighted one in my first comment. I know the blog author and I really don’t think he is “Young Restless and Reformed”
Now to John Mac’s sentence here:
But the blog post in question is not about him. It is about J Wilson (his blog here): http://brewvana.wordpress.com/
Of J Wilson and his “fast”, Ordinary Pastor says:
By the way I have a blog where I highlight a lot of weird stuff (and some technical tips, some financial advice, some theology, some personal stuff, some polical views).
Here’s the blog: http://coldfusion-guy.blogspot.com/
Yesterday I posted a YouTube video about a guy who lives in a 78 square foot apartment in NYC. I am not advocating that lifestyle
I think that John Mac’s fact checkers failed him
(But I still agree that we should not promote drinking!)
Now to John Mac’s sentence here:
For some who self-identify as “Young, Restless, and Reformed,” it seems beer is a more popular topic for study and discussion than the doctrine of predestinationThe blog author is a reformed Baptist pastor. Link here: http://www.ordinarypastor.com/?page_id=459
But the blog post in question is not about him. It is about J Wilson (his blog here): http://brewvana.wordpress.com/
Of J Wilson and his “fast”, Ordinary Pastor says:
J. Wilson definitely has the most creative Lenten story that I’ve heard.And later in his comments:
btw, there is no mention of this guy being part of the Young, Restless and Reformed crowd. He is a just a guy from Iowa. I have no idea about his doctrine. I found the story intriguing.So just because a YRR guy posts something about a guy’s weird fast that makes him:
- A drinking advocate?
- Who is not concerned about doctrine?
By the way I have a blog where I highlight a lot of weird stuff (and some technical tips, some financial advice, some theology, some personal stuff, some polical views).
Here’s the blog: http://coldfusion-guy.blogspot.com/
Yesterday I posted a YouTube video about a guy who lives in a 78 square foot apartment in NYC. I am not advocating that lifestyle
I think that John Mac’s fact checkers failed him
(But I still agree that we should not promote drinking!)
I agree what we need is a ‘flout-free’ Christianity.
The conundrum IMO is how to define ‘sober’ or ‘sobriety’. I can’t help but think of the timeless question “How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop?” SO- how many drinks until one can no longer be considered sober? Is it OK to have a ‘mild buzz’? At what point is someone’s inhibitions lowered or their judgment impaired? Since we know that this is going to be different for each person, how can one in good conscience encourage another person to have a drink, not knowing whether or not they are placing a stumblingblock in their path? If the point of the get-together is to have Christian fellowship, shouldn’t the defining factors be things that are without question beneficial?
Full disclosure- I couldn’t drink if I wanted to, because alcohol of any kind/amount sends my heart into atrial fibrillation, and I discovered this after my husband assured me that a dose of Nyquil would kick that head cold right out of me. Something got kicked, all right. So I will never use wine during the Lord’s Supper. I also have a mild allergy to grapes (they make the roof of my mouth itch and blister) but I deal with it in order to participate. Now you know more than you want to about me.
Anyway, I thoroughly agree with Dr. MacArthur’s admonishment here. Of all the things Christians are to be known for, imbibing should be on the list somewhere around golf and argyle socks.
http://christinacronk.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/tootsie-pop-owl.jpg
The conundrum IMO is how to define ‘sober’ or ‘sobriety’. I can’t help but think of the timeless question “How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop?” SO- how many drinks until one can no longer be considered sober? Is it OK to have a ‘mild buzz’? At what point is someone’s inhibitions lowered or their judgment impaired? Since we know that this is going to be different for each person, how can one in good conscience encourage another person to have a drink, not knowing whether or not they are placing a stumblingblock in their path? If the point of the get-together is to have Christian fellowship, shouldn’t the defining factors be things that are without question beneficial?
Full disclosure- I couldn’t drink if I wanted to, because alcohol of any kind/amount sends my heart into atrial fibrillation, and I discovered this after my husband assured me that a dose of Nyquil would kick that head cold right out of me. Something got kicked, all right. So I will never use wine during the Lord’s Supper. I also have a mild allergy to grapes (they make the roof of my mouth itch and blister) but I deal with it in order to participate. Now you know more than you want to about me.
Anyway, I thoroughly agree with Dr. MacArthur’s admonishment here. Of all the things Christians are to be known for, imbibing should be on the list somewhere around golf and argyle socks.
http://christinacronk.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/tootsie-pop-owl.jpg
Jim,
It looks like Dr. MacArthur wrote the article about a general teed-off feeling, then had an intern look up links to prove his point. This is the kind of stuff that’s going to make YRR types not listen to him, and that’s unfortunate. This reminds me of the whole “Darrin Patrick makes up his own theology” cerfuffle a few months ago.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2011/01/25/darrin-patr…
MacArthur misunderstands the writings of an A29 guy, jumps to conclusions, ticks people off, they don’t listen to him. Repeat.
Shayne
It looks like Dr. MacArthur wrote the article about a general teed-off feeling, then had an intern look up links to prove his point. This is the kind of stuff that’s going to make YRR types not listen to him, and that’s unfortunate. This reminds me of the whole “Darrin Patrick makes up his own theology” cerfuffle a few months ago.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2011/01/25/darrin-patr…
MacArthur misunderstands the writings of an A29 guy, jumps to conclusions, ticks people off, they don’t listen to him. Repeat.
Shayne
Discussion