"It's still a little mind-boggling ... the concept of Islam overall makes people nervous because of 9/11"
An American in Israel asked an Israeli what he thot of Americans. He replied, “naiive.” How true politically. How many of us yet accept fully that major segments of Islam are at war with us? It is not just one or two small isolated terrorists units but it is an energetic, worldwide battle - in many countries violence ande security is up! - thousands upon thousands of nonuniformed soldiers.
Who doubts that the peaceful Moslems would not fall in line with the terrorists if they gained control - even as in Gaza strip, etc? Where a sizeable Muslim population exists, parts of England are already under Sharia Law. The police avoid those areas it is reported. Check it out.
I oppose the Mosque. Islam is a hybrid, - a very political animal not peaceful, pure religion. Mosques have been shown to support and even foment violence against outsiders. It is a Trojan Horse. How should we expect this guerilla army to attack - jump out of planes in parachutes? Wake up. Surely our fine Consitution intended to limit religious freedom to PEACEFUL religions. This leopard ain’t gonna change its spots any time soon.
Questions for Fred
My view is that intolerance towards one religion is intolerance towards all religion. Religious intolerance towards the building of a Muslim mosque today could become intolerance towards building a structure for a Bible believing Christians tomorrow.
- Re: “Surely our fine Constitution intended to limit religious freedom to PEACEFUL religions”. You have the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment] Establishment Clause . I don’t see where the constitution prohibits the Muslim faith or the building of Mosques
- I understand that the oldest mosque in the US was established in 1934. Details:
- About violence in America. Seems we have other state and federal laws that deal with that!
- There does appear to be peaceful Muslims in America. I’ve met many of them (unless they are just waiting for the right time to slit my throat! I don’t expect that to happen!)
- Re: “I oppose the Mosque”. Are you referring the so called ” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51] Ground Zero Mosque “? Or http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2011847,00.html the Murfreesboro, Tenn mosque ?
- Backus letter: http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_2_7.asp] AN APPEAL TO THE PUBLIC FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY
we would previously offer a few thoughts concerning the general nature of liberty and government, and then shew wherein it appears to us, that our religious rights are encroached upon in this land.
- Danbury Baptist Association letter to Thomas Jefferson: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=65] Letter from the Danbury Baptists
Our sentiments are uniformly on the side of religious liberty: that Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals, that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions, [and] that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbor. But sir, our constitution of government is not specific.
- Jefferson’s response: http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html Jefferson’s Wall of Separation Letter
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature would “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.
- Jefferson’s letter to http://www.churchstatelaw.com/historicalmaterials/8_8_12.asp] Sister Marie Theresa Farjon de St. Xavier is also of interest
He assured Sister Farjon that “the principles of the constitution and the government of the United States are a sure guarantee [that your property] will be preserved to you sacred and inviolate, and that your institution will be permitted to govern itself according to it’s own voluntary rules, without interference from the civil authority.” He then offered more: “be assured [your religious institution] will meet all the protection which my office can give it.”
My view is that intolerance towards one religion is intolerance towards all religion. Religious intolerance towards the building of a Muslim mosque today could become intolerance towards building a structure for a Bible believing Christians tomorrow.
In history Baptists have been subjected to gross intolerance … even to death. While I do not document this here, that fact is well known.Very True!!!!!!!
My view is that intolerance towards one religion is intolerance towards all religion. Religious intolerance towards the building of a Muslim mosque today could become intolerance towards building a structure for a Bible believing Christians tomorrow.
Hi brothers,
Do I hear you saying that U.S. Islam is “kosher” because you personally have not had your throat slit? Ask the victims’ families of 9/11 if war has begun. Are you saying that war has not begun until every single citizen is bloodied? We ARE at war. Our soldiers are dying continually overseas. The battle terrain changes over time.
* where Islam takes control religious freedom for others suffers any way.
* I too am a religion-loving Baptist!! It IS a tough call. Curtailing religious freedom could come back to haunt us. True! My views are not set in concrete but we already have Christians being persecuted in many Muslim countries. Where do we draw the line? I see no perfect solution. I just read that there are already 200 mosques in NYC so they are not deprived of religious oppor..
* Other terrorist groups cannot set up shop openly, why this one?
* I refer to Ground Zero mosque and would vote against the one in Murfreesboro,TN too if I could. I might liken it to NCAA cleaning up some college sports programs before they can continue. Let Islam first clean things up. Way over due. I need to see the peaceful Muslms gain full control. I would put these mosques on hold - at best - take these motions.
* but praise God, Jesus will straighten it all out one day soon!
In the 1930s among the liberal elite in England Nazi jewelry was in vogue. Some are late to catch on.
Do I hear you saying that U.S. Islam is “kosher” because you personally have not had your throat slit? Ask the victims’ families of 9/11 if war has begun. Are you saying that war has not begun until every single citizen is bloodied? We ARE at war. Our soldiers are dying continually overseas. The battle terrain changes over time.
* where Islam takes control religious freedom for others suffers any way.
* I too am a religion-loving Baptist!! It IS a tough call. Curtailing religious freedom could come back to haunt us. True! My views are not set in concrete but we already have Christians being persecuted in many Muslim countries. Where do we draw the line? I see no perfect solution. I just read that there are already 200 mosques in NYC so they are not deprived of religious oppor..
* Other terrorist groups cannot set up shop openly, why this one?
* I refer to Ground Zero mosque and would vote against the one in Murfreesboro,TN too if I could. I might liken it to NCAA cleaning up some college sports programs before they can continue. Let Islam first clean things up. Way over due. I need to see the peaceful Muslms gain full control. I would put these mosques on hold - at best - take these motions.
* but praise God, Jesus will straighten it all out one day soon!
In the 1930s among the liberal elite in England Nazi jewelry was in vogue. Some are late to catch on.
Question for Fred:
With regard to United States citizens who are Muslims, do they enjoy the freedoms of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Const…] our Constitution ? Such as “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”
By the way I recently viewed a short video about Islam - Three Things About Islam .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=player_embedded
I highly recommend it.
With regard to United States citizens who are Muslims, do they enjoy the freedoms of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Const…] our Constitution ? Such as “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”
By the way I recently viewed a short video about Islam - Three Things About Islam .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=player_embedded
I highly recommend it.
The answer - targeted Muslim missions in US cities with high Muslim populations!
While Muslim countries are closed to missionary endeavor - God has brought the world to our own country. Cities with large Muslim concentrations should be targeted for missions!
Several seminaries have specialized programs - here is one such program: http://www.ses.edu/Academic/DegreesSchools/CertificateinIslamicStudies/…] Certificate in Islamic Studies
Persecution or curtailing of Constitutional liberties is the wrong approach!
While Muslim countries are closed to missionary endeavor - God has brought the world to our own country. Cities with large Muslim concentrations should be targeted for missions!
Several seminaries have specialized programs - here is one such program: http://www.ses.edu/Academic/DegreesSchools/CertificateinIslamicStudies/…] Certificate in Islamic Studies
Persecution or curtailing of Constitutional liberties is the wrong approach!
Fred,
I don’t think we have to worry about Muslims taking over America anytime soon. Europe might be facing that problem because a majority of their immigrants are Muslim However, a large majority of our immigrants (legal or illegal) come over our southern border and are Latino. They are usually Roman Catholic or Pentecostal. However, there are many cities as Jim as mentioned that do have significant Muslim populations, although it is still a small minority compared with other minority groups. My city, Grand Rapids, combined with two of its older Suburbs (Wyoming and Kentwood) has approximately 20,000 or so Muslims, many who are nominal (especially the 15,000 former Bosnian Refugees).
During the past year, an Iraqi refugee has been attending our church through the friendship of his landlord. He used to do security for a U.S. company but his house in Iraq was firebombed and he escaped with his life. He and many other immigrants have appreciated the religious freedom that America has. At first, he went to the mosques in Grand Rapids/Kentwood and then he started going to our church. Since attending our church he has professed faith in Christ and is now experiencing being shunned and persecuted by many in the middle-eastern community in our city. He will be Baptized soon. I tell this story to give you some perspective that God is bringing Muslims to America and we have the opportunity to join in mission with God in seeing people of all nations (including those from Arab nations) come to faith in Jesus Christ and become incorporated into the church. My greatest fear is that we Christians blow it because we end up too fearful or defensive because of events such as 9-11.
I don’t think we have to worry about Muslims taking over America anytime soon. Europe might be facing that problem because a majority of their immigrants are Muslim However, a large majority of our immigrants (legal or illegal) come over our southern border and are Latino. They are usually Roman Catholic or Pentecostal. However, there are many cities as Jim as mentioned that do have significant Muslim populations, although it is still a small minority compared with other minority groups. My city, Grand Rapids, combined with two of its older Suburbs (Wyoming and Kentwood) has approximately 20,000 or so Muslims, many who are nominal (especially the 15,000 former Bosnian Refugees).
During the past year, an Iraqi refugee has been attending our church through the friendship of his landlord. He used to do security for a U.S. company but his house in Iraq was firebombed and he escaped with his life. He and many other immigrants have appreciated the religious freedom that America has. At first, he went to the mosques in Grand Rapids/Kentwood and then he started going to our church. Since attending our church he has professed faith in Christ and is now experiencing being shunned and persecuted by many in the middle-eastern community in our city. He will be Baptized soon. I tell this story to give you some perspective that God is bringing Muslims to America and we have the opportunity to join in mission with God in seeing people of all nations (including those from Arab nations) come to faith in Jesus Christ and become incorporated into the church. My greatest fear is that we Christians blow it because we end up too fearful or defensive because of events such as 9-11.
Fred, Christians cannot be on the side of breaking the law and denying people their constitutional rights. I should go ahead and say that certain Christian denominations and leaders in our nation’s history did just that - standing on the side of denying people their legal rights - and that isn’t something that Christians should go back to. If we advocate breaking the law, then we advocate lawlessness, plain and simple. We can’t go around coming up with reasons to break the law with regards to some people while upholding it for others. As the 1st amendment is religion-neutral, if we oppose a mosque in a situation where we would support a church, then we would be hypocrites. Far better to be silent on an issue than be a hypocrite.
Also, Islam has political aspects and is not a “pure” religion? The same could be said for Judaism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism and some of the more “extreme” forms of covenant theology. Yes, I said the last one. Or have you forgotten that covenant theology was used to justify our treatment of Native Americans and slaves? Look, we were certainly aware of Islam when the Bill of Rights was adopted, because we were having huge trouble with Islamic piracy. We were also aware of Native American religions and their barbarous practices, plus not a few Protestants (as well as deists and unitarians) who knew what Roman Catholicism was capable of (Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, et al). If they didn’t make any special rules against Catholicism, Native American religions or Islam back then, it is impossible - indeed incredible - to claim that they would have had they known what we know today. Pardon me, but they DID know what we know today. The truth is that during that era and the time shortly preceding it, far more people died during religious wars - and wars between religious states, not to mention religious civil wars within states like those between the three main religious groups that spent centuries fighting for control of England - than on September 11th.
The idea that the Founders would have intended to ban Islam based on what happened on September 11th and not some forms of Christianity based on what happened during the Thirty Years War is folly. It is based on a reading of history that is very selective and suspect.
By the way, I fully support the state’s putting limits on religion, because religion has long been used as a subversive element (which is why the First Amendment is likely unique in history, certainly among civilized modern nations, as nations have always sought to prevent religion from being used to undermine the social, political and economic order). But I do not delude myself into thinking that altering the First Amendment would be necessary. Again, it is incredible to believe that the Founders only meant freedom for “nice religions that we like and are similar to our own”, especially since back then a Baptist was far more likely to be killed by a Catholic than a Muslim.
Also, Islam has political aspects and is not a “pure” religion? The same could be said for Judaism, Hinduism, Roman Catholicism and some of the more “extreme” forms of covenant theology. Yes, I said the last one. Or have you forgotten that covenant theology was used to justify our treatment of Native Americans and slaves? Look, we were certainly aware of Islam when the Bill of Rights was adopted, because we were having huge trouble with Islamic piracy. We were also aware of Native American religions and their barbarous practices, plus not a few Protestants (as well as deists and unitarians) who knew what Roman Catholicism was capable of (Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, et al). If they didn’t make any special rules against Catholicism, Native American religions or Islam back then, it is impossible - indeed incredible - to claim that they would have had they known what we know today. Pardon me, but they DID know what we know today. The truth is that during that era and the time shortly preceding it, far more people died during religious wars - and wars between religious states, not to mention religious civil wars within states like those between the three main religious groups that spent centuries fighting for control of England - than on September 11th.
The idea that the Founders would have intended to ban Islam based on what happened on September 11th and not some forms of Christianity based on what happened during the Thirty Years War is folly. It is based on a reading of history that is very selective and suspect.
By the way, I fully support the state’s putting limits on religion, because religion has long been used as a subversive element (which is why the First Amendment is likely unique in history, certainly among civilized modern nations, as nations have always sought to prevent religion from being used to undermine the social, political and economic order). But I do not delude myself into thinking that altering the First Amendment would be necessary. Again, it is incredible to believe that the Founders only meant freedom for “nice religions that we like and are similar to our own”, especially since back then a Baptist was far more likely to be killed by a Catholic than a Muslim.
Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura http://healtheland.wordpress.com
Gentlemen, we seem to be comparing apples with oranges. You talk as if we are at peace - white picket fence, apple pie, mentality. I see us in full blown war, Bagdad, Green zone defense perimeter mentaliy.
1. In wars in many nations rights of citizens are restricted. Security trumps all. In our Civil War, Sherman’s march to the sea burned the homes and hearths of American citizens. It was deemed necessary. In WW2 Japanese-Americans were interned in camps for security reasons, right or wrong. Today, the Dept. of Homeland Security goes to greast lengths to identify fifth columnists, infiltrators. Many nations do this in war time. This is not new.
2. Do you think that an expensive Ground Zero mosque would be paid for by Muslim taxi drivers and fellow workers or global financiers with antiAmerican agendas?
3. “There are almost a million Muslims in New York City. (Some sources claim 1.4 million; the New York City Community Affairs Bureau states the figure as 800 000.) There are more than 100 mosques in the city, plus an unknown number of small mosques that worshipers set up in their apartments or places that are not visible from the street.” - didyouknow.org
4. If the thousands of worldwide Muslim terrorists were living in NYC today - bombing many buildings, shops and cars, do you think that at some point it might occur to some that “Hey, we really are at war. Wow”?
5. Yes, I am systematically involved in worldwide missions, talking with many new converts from many nations one to one almost daily!!
Peace and joy :)
1. In wars in many nations rights of citizens are restricted. Security trumps all. In our Civil War, Sherman’s march to the sea burned the homes and hearths of American citizens. It was deemed necessary. In WW2 Japanese-Americans were interned in camps for security reasons, right or wrong. Today, the Dept. of Homeland Security goes to greast lengths to identify fifth columnists, infiltrators. Many nations do this in war time. This is not new.
2. Do you think that an expensive Ground Zero mosque would be paid for by Muslim taxi drivers and fellow workers or global financiers with antiAmerican agendas?
3. “There are almost a million Muslims in New York City. (Some sources claim 1.4 million; the New York City Community Affairs Bureau states the figure as 800 000.) There are more than 100 mosques in the city, plus an unknown number of small mosques that worshipers set up in their apartments or places that are not visible from the street.” - didyouknow.org
4. If the thousands of worldwide Muslim terrorists were living in NYC today - bombing many buildings, shops and cars, do you think that at some point it might occur to some that “Hey, we really are at war. Wow”?
5. Yes, I am systematically involved in worldwide missions, talking with many new converts from many nations one to one almost daily!!
Peace and joy :)
Fred,
Thanks for your participation. By the way I do believe we at war. I read a good book about it and I highly recommend it: http://www.amazon.com/World-War-IV-Struggle-Islamofascism/dp/0307386023] World War IV: The Long Struggle Against Islamofascism
Aside from the “ground zero” mosque:
Help me with this question that I posed before
But now more on the “ground zero” mosque:
I commented on our youth Pastor’s blog: http://standingathwart.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/distinction/ (an interesting read by the way)
My problem is that I have Muslim friends. I don’t see how restricting their rights advances the cause.
Thanks for your participation. By the way I do believe we at war. I read a good book about it and I highly recommend it: http://www.amazon.com/World-War-IV-Struggle-Islamofascism/dp/0307386023] World War IV: The Long Struggle Against Islamofascism
Aside from the “ground zero” mosque:
Help me with this question that I posed before
With regard to United States citizens who are Muslims, do they enjoy the freedoms of our Constitution? Such as “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”–––
But now more on the “ground zero” mosque:
I commented on our youth Pastor’s blog: http://standingathwart.wordpress.com/2010/08/24/distinction/ (an interesting read by the way)
In my view, it really is not accurate to call it a mosque “at ground zero”. It’s a mosque (or Islamic cultural center) in Lower Manhattan (actually 2 blocks away from ground zero).––––- More on “the war” ––––—
My sense is that the political right has manufactured this as an issue. Admittedly Salon is left leaning media, but the time line of the anti-Mosque movement is documented http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2010/08/16/ground_zero_mosq…] here
When one’s message is weak, a good strategy is to be shrill about something else. That in my view is what some are doing.
I find Ron Paul’s comments valid: http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/ron-paul-sunshine-patriots-stop-your-… Stop Your Demagogy About The NYC Mosque! : “Conservatives are once again, unfortunately, failing to defend private property rights, a policy we claim to cherish. In addition conservatives missed a chance to challenge the hypocrisy of the left which now claims they defend property rights of Muslims, yet rarely if ever, the property rights of American private businesses.”
My problem is that I have Muslim friends. I don’t see how restricting their rights advances the cause.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2010/08/mosque-mu…-] Is arson at Tenn. mosque site a kind of terrorism?
someone set fire to the construction equipment at the mosque site before dawn Saturday, say local and federal officials in today’s Nashville Tennessean
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