"Over the last few years some former pastors and leaders in Sovereign Grace have made charges against me ..."

I followed the leads provided by Alex and have immersed myself in the world of Sovereign Grace Ministries for several days. What emerges is very disturbing indeed. I don’t think it really matters whether or not Alex considers this a way to blacken what he calls the neo-Puritans. If the problems are as real and as widespread as they appear, they should be brought out in the light of day, and followed by genuine repentance, and an aggressive effort to change deeply entrenched ways of doing ministry, and even thinking about ministry. I admit I am baffled. The testimonies of SGM “survivors” seem so contrary to the tone and import of the literature many of us have enjoyed from Mahaney, Harris, etc.. Yet most of the accounts seem legitimate, and many reflect a godly perspective.

Many of the “survivor’s” stories are compelling and tragic. The problems revealed are manifold:, poor leadership, lack of accountability, the worst abuses of charismania, legalism, celebrity worship and profound personal failings at very high levels. I also listened to Joshua Harris’ sermon from yesterday, and read accounts of a large Q and A they had at his church Sunday night. They took all questions…no limits. I understand he has opened his blog to all comments for the first time. He is even encouraging current SGM people to go to the SGM critic’s web sites and see for themselves what the accusations are and what pain has been caused. I think there is a very real effort being made at transparency. That is good. Clearly, there are very big problems in SGM, and I think Harris is coming to terms with them in a very healthy way.

These people need our prayers. I’m not sure the movement can survive, and I’m not sure it should. An atmosphere of oppressive leadership that has put in place a host of leaders trained in such methods will not change easily. It is a culture all its own. Is their stated commitment to the Gospel powerful enough to break that culture apart without many changes at the top? I don’t know. It is a thoroughly top-down organization, so I doubt many will be willing to step down, or allow themselves to be held directly accountable. And I fear Alex is right that the conference circuit, and other leaders may have some culpability here, being a little too willing to support Mahaney because of his ability to popularize a Reformed view of salvation (which I largely share). We need to do better than that. But right now, I am praying for the SGM leaders, and I hope you will all join me.

[Wayne Wilson] I admit I am baffled. The testimonies of SGM “survivors” seem so contrary to the tone and import of the literature many of us have enjoyed from Mahaney

I understand the being baffled, somewhat, and possibly the commissioning by the TGC/T4G Teachers/Leaders makes it more so because having embraced Mahaney into their ranks assumes a due diligence on the part of those placing faith in their judgment.

But again, somewhat. With respect to Mahaney there is much to critique regarding his publications and sermons which I do not believe are of the substantial quality we are led to believe. Again, with the blessings and blurbs of esteemed men aiding in the lauch of a book, it may be we have read them with prejudice. But…this is not the time for such critiques so I will not go further.

What I am really responding to is the observation of the wholesale contradiction in Mahaney’s general concessions, that things must be done the bible way and the use of biblical language, verses his practice. IMO this simply is much more widespread than we know, though in varying degrees. If we pulled back the covers to many ministries, as we have had done with with SGM, we would find much more to the contrary than what is said from their lips and published in their books. And I am not speaking about good but imperfect ministries, but ministries, many of them, which are, unbeknownst to many, quite politically and humanistically operated. As you even acknowledge, Mahaney’s rise and lack of vetting with the TGC/T4G is concerning. And as I linked to, there is documentation in which his increased giving to SBTS paralleled his rise in the group. Not good at all.

To teach people one way and practice another is done all the time, inside the church and outside the church. Now the big question to me is why? Why do men do it and why are they enabled?

My only answer is that they do not take seriously what they are saying but they know what they are saying is what must be said in order to gain whatever it is they wish to gain. One cannot publish a book on Humility while in the midst of writing it and then publishing it and receiving and accepting recognition for it yet be living quite to the contrary of its tenets without seriously concluding that what the person is writing about isn’t a subject he takes personally seriously, rather it has to be for some other reason(s).

Outside of Evangelical Christianity, Al Gore stands as a prime example to which we can compare ourselves. He preaches conservation and global warming but lives as if none of it is true. And when a man does that both his message and his ministry are morally without any authority and should not be used as a source for discipleship because in his work and his words will be hidden, inevitably, those very seeds of self-deception.

[Wayne Wilson] I followed the leads provided by Alex and have immersed myself in the world of Sovereign Grace Ministries for several days.

Please remember your source of information. You are getting information from websites that have a “beef” with Mahaney and with SGM; they are not going to paint anything in a good light. Also, recall that the Intertron is not a source of absolute information either. Any knucklehead can have a site and blast any information he wants…I do the same with my own site. So before judgment is cast based upon the sites of disgruntled people it might be wise to get more facts or ease on the harshness. The reality is Mahaney wrote a sincere, broken, humble letter and at this point I don’t believe we have any reason to not take it as that.

Please remember your source of information.

I agree we need to carefully consider sources. That’s why I took a lot of time to read many posts. Some were people you might find mad at any church where they felt snubbed, or didn’t like being confronted about their sin. Some were not believers so they grew up unsaved and don’t get Christianity at all. But there were many, too many, who clearly articulated the problems I outlined above. They were not bitter. They were crushed. They manifest the same feelings and wounds you find in many who come from oppressive church envoronments where conformity reigns, questioning leaders is out of line, gray areas are made central, different standards exist for leaders and their families, etc. The phrase “sin-sniffing’ appears over and over again.

Many of the “survivors” affirmed good things about SGM and the people there. In fact, the person who launched the “Survivors” site said they had not been mistreated at SGM, but noticed the many odd features that were so unlike Bible churches they had known and simply left. But I think it’s very significant that Joshua Harris himself recommended that his people read the posts of the wounded. Harris also said the problems at SGM are worse than what we know already. That’s why I say pray.

As for Mahaney. His behavior revealed in his own e-mails through the leaked documents is certainly below any acceptable standard of leadership. It’s also enlightening to see where Mahaney came from. His background is from a heavy “shepherding” group where the leaders control every aspect of your life. He built a church polity that falls so easily in that direction that one can see how much of that thinking remains.

Yes, consider the sources carefully, but don’t dismiss genuinely wounded people either.

I think Ligon Duncan said better in his post, http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/07/a-word-about-cj-mahaney-and-s…] http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/07/a-word-about-cj-mahaney-and-s… , than anything I could have said.

I’ve never been a fan of these folks, nor have I read any of C.J.M.’s books or listened to a single sermon by him. I only know what people have said, which has been mixed good (humility, expository preaching) and bad (charismaticism). But this entire discussion has me thinking of the various people who have left angry from ministries I’ve been involved in or with over the years. Here’s a snapshot of the various types, though some may actually exhibit symptoms from several types:

1). The bitter. Classic statement: “I’ve been keeping a little notebook of all my concerns. Let’s start with, oh, July of 1986.”
2). Those who left the church/organization because they have a problem with any authority but their own. These prima donnas must always have their own way.
3). Those who left the church/organization as they have left every previous ministry, not understanding why they cannot find a good church/organization. They fail to understand that the problem is with them. Classis statement: “After 6 Bible-believing churches, you’d think I’d have found one where the pastor wasn’t a problem.”
4). Those who left the church/organization with an erroneous understanding of what was wrong, attributing to persons problems that actually lay with structure or procedures. In other words, their concerns were valid, but they were presented as personal attacks on leaders rather than concerns that there were insufficient protections against problems or the perception of them. The presentation offended folks, and they left. The underlying structural or procedural problems may never have been addressed.
5). Those who left the church/organization because they despaired of anyone paying attention to their concerns.
6). Those who left the church/organization because the leadership circled the wagons and protected one another rather than seriously contemplating the idea that they might be mistaken. Classic statement by Senior Pastor: “I have to back my leaders, right or wrong, because disloyalty is a terrible failure.”

And you all could fill in many more in between these categories. I suspect that if any of these folks were from SGM’s organization and were into posting on bulletin boards, every one of them would have horror stories. Those from groups 1 – 4 would be completely wrong in their analysis. But some of them might tell horror stories that sounded like they were a 5 or a 6.

What am I saying? Simply this. At some point, C.J.M. said “I think I might be guilty.” In his mind, he recognized that somebody had valid concerns; he realized somebody he thought was a 1, 2, 3, or 4, was actually a 5 or a 6. He saw they weren’t all disgruntled. He needs time to analyze this. It will take some time to sort out the valid accusations from the invalid ones.

So long as he is not being forced into this by some threat, there is hope for real change in a positive direction. Meanwhile, we should be VERY careful about reading too much into ALL the stories. Some of them are probably a little off-kilter.

I am a pastor in the shadow of two of the churches found in Detwiler’s documents. Our church is located between the “Grace Community Church of Mooresville” (now defunct) and Crossway Community Church in Charlotte. In recent months, we have had multiple families come into our church reeling from what they have been experiencing in these SGM churches and I am currently counseling several of them as they struggle to regain their spiritual equilibrium. This sudden splash of Detwiler’s wikileak blogs and Mahaney’s stepping down has brought even more front and center in a sort of crisis of who they are and what they believe.

Detwiler exposes a “system” that indeed is nearly cultic in terms of the level of control and the “sin sniffing” process that they constantly practice. There is a bizarre fixation on spiritual confrontation, an unorthodox view of apostolic ministry/leadership and a misplaced focus on certain facets of the gospel to the exclusion of other parts that is genuinely problematic from my perspective. (And I’m not even dealing with the charismatic theology which is prevalent as well.) Detwiler’s copious notes and detailed narrative struck me as odd beyond belief and yet, having now counseled some of these dear folks, I now realize that it is part of the “system”. It’s, in my opinion, a hybrid of Roman Catholic confession and Scientologist auditing and makes folks extremely vulnerable to betrayal, manipulation and even blackmailing.

I was very unfamiliar with Sovereign Grace Ministries, Mahaney, Harris, et. al., but I have spent numerous hours pouring over what I have found on the internet to quickly bring myself up to speed. Now in the midst of working with some of the “survivors” themselves on a personal level, I would affirm that something MAJOR is amiss with how they “shepherd” and “confront” in the name of the Gospel and I have found it fully unhealthy spiritually, emotionally and psychologically for a majority of these folks. I don’t claim to be an expert on this, but now dealing with is as I am, I must say that there IS reason for great concern and caution in how we partner or embrace the products of SGM’s way of practicing their faith.

I would ask for prayers that I might have wisdom in dealing with some of these folks who honestly act like they are recovering from a spiritual/emotional trauma. It is one of the most unusual things I’ve encountered in nearly 30 years of ministry.

If you follow the links from GADietrich’s posts, you’ll see that Al Mohler and others have weighed in, and that CJ Mahaney spoke to http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/CJ-Mahaneys-comm…] one of the churches on Sunday night . Here’s a snippet.

When Brent responded to my email, he informed me that he was not willing to meet with me but that he would interact with me through email and written documents. Two months later I received a 130-page document from him outlining his perspective about my sins and failures as a leader in SGM.

I need to tell you up front that after reading this document and ones that followed, I don’t agree with a number of Brent’s charges and conclusions, nor the manner with which he has presented his offenses. However, my purpose this evening is not to criticize Brent or defend myself, but to inform you about various ways I have sinned and failed at different points in my ministry.

The central focus of Brent’s initial document was how I processed, responded to, and led through a relational conflict we had in 2003-2004. This conflict began when Brent and Dave Harvey brought to me correction related to certain character deficiencies and deficiencies in my leadership of the team. Rather than humbly listening to their critique and examining my heart, I reacted sinfully to what I perceived as their deficient manner of presentation, and this began a season where I was resistant to their correction.

Here is what they experienced from me:

* I was difficult to entreat.
* I sinfully judged their motives.
* I was arrogantly confident in my perception.
* I compared myself favorably to them.
* I was offended by what I thought to be a lack of appreciation from them for all I had done for them, and a lack of care for me in a season of trials.

And though we continued to work together, I gradually withdrew from them in my soul. And added to this I arrogantly dismissed their critique and did not inform others of their critique even after I agreed to do so. So I was in effect confirming the accuracy of their correction by how I was behaving.

In 2004 at the end of a lengthy process of correcting me and with the help of my small group I began to perceive some of these sins and ask forgiveness for those sins, and those in my small group were able to affirm some evidences of conviction, repentance, and growth. But in looking back my perception of my sin, my confession of sin, and my follow up with those I sinned against was woefully inadequate. I never circled back around to Brent or Dave to convey to them where they were right or the changes I was pursuing. And I neglected to inform Josh [Harris] , Grant [Layman] , and Kenneth [Maresco] about the specifics of Dave and Brent’s concerns.

When I received Brent’s first document, I sent it to a group of men who could help me evaluate the content of the document and these offenses from 2004. God used Brent’s document and the correction of my friends to help me see the sins I already mentioned much more clearly; and not just the sins, but the effects of those sins upon those I was called to serve with.

While I think 99.9% of us would look at a hundred and thirty page document of personal shortcomings with a very jaded eye (if we bothered to look at it at all), it seems like CJ took the time to weigh the concerns carefully and realized that he had been wrong. His candid and open confession of his sin(s) is incredibly refreshing - not because I’m looking to muckrake, but because he’s handling this (AFAIK) the right way, which is a refreshing change from stonewalling the critics as is so typical in IFB circles.

Say whatever you want about his doctrine, but I am very impressed so far with the way this has been handled by all parties.

Here’s http://blogs.courier-journal.com/faith/2011/07/12/mohler-backs-mahaney-… another quote :

And in a Sunday sermon, Mahaney’s successor [Josh Harris]…refused to downplay them.

“We are walking through what is without any exaggeration the most difficult challenge that we’ve faced as a church,” said the pastor, Joshua Harris.

Harris called his former mentor a “father in the faith to many of us” but that Mahaney had “confessed to some of these sins” while disagreeing with others.

“It is as bad as it seems, and it is the fault of your leaders, and we desperately need the help of God and the wisdom and the accountability of the people who have looked to our leadership to sort through this mess,” he said.

In his own statements, Mahaney said that “God is disciplining me for my sin and leadership failures and I am very grateful for this discipline.”

“I was difficult to entreat,” he told the Covenant Life congregation Sunday night. “I sinfully judged their motives. I was arrogantly confident in my perception.”

Dan, I’m praying for you, brother. Thank you for sharing. I am glad you are able to help. I think you have the most to say to us here based on actual experience.

Jay, I think Mahaney’s apology sounds great, too. The wounded have apparently heard that kind of thing before on many occasions. They don’t seem at all trustful of Mahaney. More seem hopeful about Harris, as am I, though some distrust him as well. I obviously don’t know enough to say whether they are trustworthy and sincere, but Mahaney’s sins are BIG. I would say disqualifyingly big. Above reproach has to mean something. He already is expecting to back before any investigation has started.

As a person who is only slightly familiar with Mahaney, and something of an admire of Joshua Harris, because he has been personally kind to me, I am curious to hear from people who really like Mahaney as a writer and conference speaker: Did you know he calls himself an apostle? I had

no idea

. Do you think his books would sell as much if he identified himself as one to the rest of the Reformed community? Are there any other people you would give room to call themselves apostles?

Personally, I get very nervous when guys call themselves Bishop, but don’t belong to a truly episcopal church. But an apostle?

Sorry. No idea should have been italicized, not quoted.

[Wayne Wilson] As a person who is only slightly familiar with Mahaney, and something of an admire of Joshua Harris, because he has been personally kind to me, I am curious to hear from people who really like Mahaney as a writer and conference speaker: Did you know he calls himself an apostle? I had

no idea

. Do you think his books would sell as much if he identified himself as one to the rest of the Reformed community? Are there any other people you would give room to call themselves apostles?

Personally, I get very nervous when guys call themselves Bishop, but don’t belong to a truly episcopal church. But an apostle?

No, I’d never heard that term used by Mahaney or Harris or anyone else who referred to them. If Mahaney truly does styles himself as an Apostle, then that’s a huge red flag to me, because I agree with the earlier poster who said that Apostles had to be eyewitnesses of Christ…and I don’t think CJM is quite that old.

I think that most of the people who buy his stuff have never heard about the “Apostleship” either. If they do, then I think it would affect his sales.

My thoughts on Ligon’s comments at his http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2011/07/a-word-about-cj-mahaney-and-s…] blog :

If you have been confused or discouraged by things you have read on the internet concerning my friend C.J. Mahaney and his leave of absence from the board and presidency of Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM), I would encourage you to read this and this and this and this, if you want to understand what is really going on.

You mean CJ’s letter, CJ’s version of events and all things favorable or couched with CJ and SGM’s interests, that is THE PERPETRATORS, you want to us to get the straight story from the abuser but not…the victims because the PERPETRATOR has been so forthright this whole time? LOL!

I would then encourage you to ignore the assaults of wounded people on attack websites and blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.

Oh, right, the wounded people, we wouldn’t want to listen to them. Right. Great idea Ligon (am I somehow back in IFB world, haven’t we been here before, time and time again as they circle the wagons?). No doubt we can dump all the wounded in a truck and dismiss their groaning as assaults. Despicable.

It is clear that far from a scandalous cover up, our brothers at Sovereign Grace are taking these matters with utter seriousness and are endeavoring to walk in Gospel repentance and humility and fidelity. C.J. knows of my complete love and respect for him. And my brethren at Sovereign Grace know of my support and prayers for them. Al Mohler has spoken about this here.

Oh, Al Mohler eh? Well, let’s see what the http://blogs.courier-journal.com/faith/2011/07/12/mohler-backs-mahaney-… article says:

“I always have had only the highest estimation of C.J. Mahaney as a man and a minister,” Mohler said in an interview — his first public comments on the situation involving Mahaney, one of his fellow leaders in the Reformed, neo-Calvinist movement. “That continues absolutely unchanged. There is nothing in this current situation which would leave me to have even the slightest pause of confidence in him.”

Um, Al, have you read CJ’s latest longer and more specific confession of this having gone on for years yet none of this gave you “even the slightest pause of confidence in him”? Oh wait, right Al, we forgot. CJ’s rise within your circles paralleled his increased giving to SBTS. Oops. I am sure you are quite objective, not like those “wounded” evil ones, they aren’t, right? Someone call an ophthalmologist please, I think my eyes just rolled back into my head, permanently.

But wait, there is more and rather ironic:

“There is nothing disqualifying in terms of anything that is disclosed in this,” said Mohler, who regularly speaks on programs along with Mahaney. “It’s just evidence we knew all along, that C.J. is human but a deeply committed Christian and a visionary Christian leader.”

Sovereign Grace itself is taking a more cautious approach. A statement from its board called the allegations “serious.”

“These charges are not related to any immorality or financial impropriety, but this doesn’t minimize their serious nature, which include various expressions of pride, unentreatability (inability to accept correction), deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy,” the board said. (One reader last week wondered how the board was defining “immorality” in light of that catalogue of sins.)

That’s right, “it’s evidence we knew all along”……..WHAT???????????????????????

But wait, look what SGM says:

They don’t say such tempered things but willingly admit there are considerations of “deceit, sinful judgment, hypocrisy” and Al Mohler says “we” (I assume the T4G posse) “knew it all along” but that somehow while practicing “deceit, sinful judgment, and hypocrisy” he considered CJ a “deeply committed Christian”? WHAT????????????????????????

And, of course, C.J. has reached out to Mark Dever for counsel and accountability, but I want to emphasize that we fully respect the process that SGM is taking to review the entire situation and that we have no intention whatsoever of joining in the adjudicating of this case in the realm of the internet - a practice as ugly as it is unbiblical.

Really, no intent of joining in the adjudicating of this case? Really? Then maybe, Ligon, you ought to go back and read your introductory paragraph where you adjudicated the wounded as guilty of “assault”. My stomach is getting sick, pardon me for a moment.

Our response ought, positively, to be to pray for SGM. Indeed, they have asked us to: “Please pray for the people involved and for our network of local churches. This is a difficult time for us, but we see God using these events to refine us and prune us (June 15). We want to embrace all God has for us in this time and pray it will lead to greater fruitfulness. Psalm 37:3 & 5 carry a precious promise: “Trust in the Lord, and do good; dwell in the land and befriend faithfulness … Commit your way to the Lord; trust in him, and he will act.”
If you read this, you will get a taste of the fruit of Gospel repentance that is already being borne in SGM. It would have been very easy for the leadership of SGM to ignore and dismiss these charges, because so many of them are so evidently self-serving and spurious accusations. But instead, the leadership of SGM has taken the high road, or rather they have chosen to go the way of self-examination, submission to outside review and correction, self-abasement and repentance. It just makes me love and respect them all the more.

Gospel repentance is…when someone is about to go public with an extensive history of documentation of your abuses…you come clean? Nah, I can’t find that in the bible, Ligon.

Now, as to CJ. My personal hope is that he does learn and understand what genuine humility is all about. However, any organization that has been operated as recklessly and abusively as he now admits to the degree he admits, normally is followed by the head of that organization, not taking a little time off to sit in the corner and come back all rehabilitated but in lieu of the years of abuse and mismanagement, they take years off because the years of abuse and mismanagement which indicate a need for years of rehab. But no, that won’t happen, they are circling the wagons my friend.

Welcome to the IFB, T4G-Reformed style.

If you go to the First Presbyterian website, there’s a neat little icon of an envelope next to Ligon Duncan’s name. That can be clicked on and messages can be sent directly to him. http://www.fpcjackson.org/staff/staff_directory.htm

Also, after Dr. Mohler’s defense of Mr. Mahaney, Brent Detwiler (the guy who wrote the 600-page document) said

“I have nothing but respect for Dr. Mohler. He is a remarkable man and done incalculable good in Southern Baptist circles and the Body of Christ at large. People everywhere should listen to his radio broadcasts and read his published materials. I am sure his friendship and support is a great source of comfort to C.J. during this challenging time.”

“-Sovereign Grace Ministries has been a wonderful organization committed to planting Gospel-centered churches in the United States and parts abroad. There are many outstanding pastors and people in the denomination. But temptation and sin come with rapid growth and recognition. That was especially true for C.J. and we did not serve him well by allowing him to play by a different set of rules – a double standard. We certainly share the blame for his fall. But C.J. genuinely loves the Lord and people so I am confident he will respond to God’s discipline in his life.

That quote can be found at the following site: http://blogs.courier-journal.com/faith/2011/07/12/mohler-backs-mahaney-…

There is something else more troubling in Mohler’s defense of Mahaney.

Mohler also supported Sovereign Grace’s highly centralized leadership structure in its churches, with “very strong pastoral direction” and internal discipline.

“It’s something clearly called for in the New Testament,” he said.

Mohler said he knew this practice has had online critics for years.

“Basically there are people who are very uncomfortable with the strong kind of spiritual direction that comes through the Sovereign Grace Ministries,” Mohler said. “It’s very hard to criticize it on biblical terms, as you’ll see on most of those Web sites. It basically comes down to the criticism, ‘I don’t like that.’”

Painful words to read from Al Mohler, who has been something of a hero to me. This hurts.