Mohler: The Central Tragedy of this Case Remains—Trayvon Martin Belongs to Us All

[GregH]

[Susan R]

[GregH]

The general tone and content of many in this thread have made their opinions on this very clear.

“General tone and content”, eh? What tone, and what content?

Sorry you feel that way, but I don’t think anyone gets to make such an accusation as ‘white Christians in this thread do not acknowledge the injustices faced by African Americans, or sympathize with our black neighbors’ without backing up with more than ‘general tone and content’, and no specifics.

I don’t “get” to huh? ;) I am going to let my words stand as I said them. No offense Susan but I am not going to invest time into parsing words and tone with you. I am perfectly content with reasonable people reading this thread and coming to their own conclusions.

So you are going for the verbal hit and run? Where you make accusations that you refuse to back up? Okey-dokey. I’m all for reasonable people drawing their own conclusion about that.

Christian,

Yet, Revelation 7:9 explains we as the church are working toward something different. The first century church developed a multi-ethnic identity very early on, as seen in places like Acts 13 (pretty diverse group there!) and Galatians 3:28.

This is not an American ideal. It is a very Biblical one, in fact.

God didn’t “make humanity” this way, either. Babel was a curse, my friend, brought on by sin.

I will say, though, your response does perhaps make clear why you have been so vehement in this thread.

Susan, as a military “brat” myself, yeah, there does tend to be a lot more openness to these issues among military types and their families (like your proximity to the AFB).

Here’s a story I wish would ‘catch fire’. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/07/19/are-you-raising-your…

What’s wrong with being positive and hopeful to engender positivity and hopefulness?

Sorry dude. But the tongues given at Babel was not a curse. Babel was an example of man disobeying God’s command that man should be fruitful and multiply and fill the Earth. Man was trying to stay together in one place and build a large city so that they would not be scattered. But God had other plans…

“And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.” - Genesis 1:28

“And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.” -Genesis 11:4

[Susan R] I’m not discounting that there are places where racial tensions are high- obviously there are many wounds, and the violent protests are evidence that many people believe that they are hated (or at least suspected of nefarious activities) by most of white America because of their skin color. My objections come from the belief that I don’t think it is true that most of white America is racist, and to me it appears that some don’t want those wounds to heal, and others- no matter how many strides are made in a positive direction- don’t believe it’s enough, or maybe they don’t believe it’s sincere? But way too many of the conversations about race in America, are, in my opinion, manufactured controversy, just like the Martin/Zimmerman case.

Very true, Chip. I think I saw an article recently that was saying that white Americans will soon become the minority in this country. The are more hispanics being born in this country than any other race. And yet I doubt that whites will ever be called a minority by the Liberal media. Even when they become a small percentage of the population, whites will still be treated as being racist and the cause of blacks’ problems.

If the people had dispersed on their own as God commanded, perhaps the confusion of languages would not have taken place. What Genesis 11 does tell us that God actively confused the languages in response to their rebellion.

The word “curse” may not appear, but it certainly isn’t portrayed as a blessing.

And as has been noted, the NT paints a picture where almost from the beginning, ethnicities (Jew and Gentile) shared church fellowship. You can’t get around that. It is the norm, and those who try to maintain those lines of demarcation are seen as threats to the gospel.

I don’t see that in the NT. I see that Peter and James and John preached the Gospel to the Jews, and Paul preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. The church at Jerusalem was Jewish, while the churches in other regions of the world were made up of Gentiles.

“On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.”

Galatians 2:7-9

Sure, in Christ, we are all one. But to say that the Churches in the Apostolic times were multicultural is inaccurate. In those days, the Church was basically the body of believers in a particular city. If that city happened to be Gentiles, then the membership was made up of Gentiles.

I already brought up Antioch. You have a list of different backgrounds and ethnicities (though an obvious Jewish influence) singled out in Acts 13. You see Paul resisting Jewish influences in the churches in his epistles, and it is almost definite that there were Jewish contingents and influence in most every congregation Paul dealt with (either actively or writing to). Timothy was of mixed heritage, and problems were confronted because of resistance from the Jewish side. Paul gives an extended narrative of his rebuke of Peter, whose behavior with, um, Gentiles initiated a confrontation moment.

Yes, Paul confronted a visiting Peter. Peter was visiting Antioch. And his hypocrisy when James and other elders from Jerusalem came to visit, shows that Jews and Gentiles were not accustomed to congregating together. The Jews still practiced circumcision and other rituals that were part of their culture. The Gentiles did not.

In my experience, when visiting churches that are mixed, and churches that are homogenous(hispanic, black, asian, etc.), it usually seems that the ones that are homogenous are the most united, and know one another more intimately. I (hispanic) recently attended a chinese church for a few months after a friend invited. And while they were extremely lovely people, hospitable and kind and friendly, and though I enjoyed being around them and made friends, I always felt an outsider. No matter what I did, I would never be one of them. The culture is just so different.

I am not advocating segregation. I am just saying, people who share the same ethnicity and language tend to gravitate towards each other.

Multi-ethnic churches in America are relatively new thing. It happens usually when really large churches open up in urban areas. The people that attend these churches are usually single people from the city looking for a more casual environment.

These things do take time, sure. At the same time, most people of Nordic descent up this way don’t have too much trouble congregating with the Britons or Germanic types. We have a local congregation that for a long, long time was known as “First English Lutheran” because there was a contingent of German speaking Lutherans in our town. It’s just “First Lutheran” now, but it took a generation or more for that to take place.

I know there is a process. Just like there would have been adjustments and flare-ups in the first century, we have them here. We’re three years into a congregation that’s become about 50/50 in attendance between established Americans and first generation S’gaw Karen refugees from Burma, as I mentioned earlier. It is hard to get the adults interacting in much more than surface ways because of the differences. The kids have much less trouble, though- and for the most part, that is a very good thing for all concerned. The Karen parents especially appreciate it, because they cannot navigate through the culture their children are being exposed to very well on their own- they rely on their kids as much as anything. I expect, though, in another 5-10 years, it will get easier for everyone, at least culturally.

[christian cerna]

I don’t see that in the NT. I see that Peter and James and John preached the Gospel to the Jews, and Paul preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. The church at Jerusalem was Jewish, while the churches in other regions of the world were made up of Gentiles.

“On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles), and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.”

Galatians 2:7-9

Sure, in Christ, we are all one. But to say that the Churches in the Apostolic times were multicultural is inaccurate. In those days, the Church was basically the body of believers in a particular city. If that city happened to be Gentiles, then the membership was made up of Gentiles.

Christian, I don’t think your statements are born out by Scripture…

Acts 2:5-13 indicates that the early church was comprised of Jews from Jerusalem and around the world. “Proselytes” were Gentiles who had taken on Jewish culture to some extent…but they were hardly Jewish in the eyes of a Jew.

Acts 6:1-7 states that the very reason that deacons were instituted was because of the accusation of racial/cultural bias on the part of the early church. The Gentile widows were in danger of being neglected and the apostles saw fit to change that.

Acts 8:26-37 - Philip, a deacon from Jerusalem shares the Gospel with a black man.

Acts 9:15 - God says that Paul will carry the Gospel to Gentiles and the children of Israel.

Acts 10 - God forces Peter to share the Gospel with Cornelius and other Gentiles.

Acts 11:19-21 - the church at Antioch was characterized by a missional focus on Gentiles

Acts 15:8-9 - Peter asserts that God has broken down the barriers between Gentiles and Jews

Acts 15 - the very reason for the Jerusalem council was that Jewish believers were joining Gentile in worship and commanding them to follow the Mosaic Law….if the Jews and the Gentiles were completely separate, I’m not sure how the problem would have occurred.

Acts 16 - Paul brings along Timothy (half Jew/half Gentile). Timothy is circumcised to benefit the ministry to the Jews.

Acts 18:1-4 - Jews (Aquila and Priscilla) join Paul’s ministry to the Jews and Gentiles. Paul preaches in the synagogue every Sabbath to persuade Jews and Gentiles.

Acts 18:7-8 - Paul stays in the house of a Gentile (Titius Justus) and converts Crispus, the leader of the synagogue next door…

In the Epistle to the Romans, Paul addresses issues that came to the forefront as Jewish Christians returned to the house churches in Rome to find that the Gentile Christians had come to dominate. There would be no reason to address these issues if the Jews and Gentiles worshipped in separate gatherings.

In First Corinthians, Paul addresses the issue of circumcision (1 Cor 7:17-20). It was apparently a source of conflict within the Corinthian church. This would not have been an issue in a segregated church. Also, the discussion of meat offered to idols is best explained by Gentile believers being comfortable within the Gentile culture of Corinth whereas Jewish believers were not. Gentiles gave no thought to buying meat from the shanties behind the temple…the Jews were forbidden to do so.

The marvelous passage of Christian unity in Galatians 3:26-27 bears testimony to the breaking down of boundaries between Jews and Gentiles. Paul also emphasizes this point in Colossians 3:11. Neither of these passages would have been necessary for a uni-cultural church.

And from where I stand, anyone who still relies on corporate-owned media pundits to support an argument isn’t equipped to offer worthwhile solutions.