Protecting patients from Jesus
We are not given enough information to make a decision concerning this.
If the young man was mentally ill in a way that made him incompetent to handle his own affairs then the doctor should discuss this first with the caretaker. This was evidently his mother.
True mental illness is Brain disease and usually must be treated medically. Spiritual counsel must be done after gaining some indication of the patients history and reaction.
If it is Brain disease then spiritual counsel can help if done with due diligence and care.
if done carelessly spiritual counsel can due harm to the patient.
If the young man was mentally ill in a way that made him incompetent to handle his own affairs then the doctor should discuss this first with the caretaker. This was evidently his mother.
True mental illness is Brain disease and usually must be treated medically. Spiritual counsel must be done after gaining some indication of the patients history and reaction.
If it is Brain disease then spiritual counsel can help if done with due diligence and care.
if done carelessly spiritual counsel can due harm to the patient.
Here’s a new hypothetical situation, addressing a different part of the problem:
You are a pastor. You are awakened by a call in the night. It is one of your church’s members. He reports that his wife has been increasingly sullen for weeks, without explanation. She did not want to go to church, or anywhere else in public. She awakened him this night, standing over him with a sharp knife, indicating her intention to kill him because “Satan says so”.
Your judgment is that she is…
1). Suffering from a neurological problem or disease that is affecting normal brain function. Perhaps there is a contagion or exposure to an odd drug.
2). Mentally ill.
3). Suffering from a spiritual problem
4). Without doubt possessed by a demon.
When all you have is a hammer, all the problems tend to be viewed as nails. A neurologist might imagine a brain problem of some sort. A psychologist would explain it psychologially. Some preachers would lean toward # 3. And Charismatics would inevitably lean toward # 4.
In fact, the question should be unanswerable. We need more data. It could be any of the above (though demonic possession that leads to this kind of murder seems to be rare in the Western World).
Our society has cast its vote for # 2 as the default opinion for any quirky behavior. Perhaps, in some cases, it may turn out to be 1 (where is that Dr. House when you need him?).
Most Fundamentalists preachers have cast their vote for # 3, or 1, with great skepticism toward 2.
And in all fairness, there can be crossover. 1 may lead to lasting 2 even after 1 is cleared up. 3 may lead to 2. 4 may lead to 1, per several passages in Scripture.
The problem is default judgment.
An MRI.
A series of wisely asked questions from both a psychological and spiritual point of view.
Some blood tests.
Our society and many of us preachers are being equally foolish in rushing to judgment in these matters.
We don’t know what the Doctor said. But it may have been just what the patient needed. Or not.
You are a pastor. You are awakened by a call in the night. It is one of your church’s members. He reports that his wife has been increasingly sullen for weeks, without explanation. She did not want to go to church, or anywhere else in public. She awakened him this night, standing over him with a sharp knife, indicating her intention to kill him because “Satan says so”.
Your judgment is that she is…
1). Suffering from a neurological problem or disease that is affecting normal brain function. Perhaps there is a contagion or exposure to an odd drug.
2). Mentally ill.
3). Suffering from a spiritual problem
4). Without doubt possessed by a demon.
When all you have is a hammer, all the problems tend to be viewed as nails. A neurologist might imagine a brain problem of some sort. A psychologist would explain it psychologially. Some preachers would lean toward # 3. And Charismatics would inevitably lean toward # 4.
In fact, the question should be unanswerable. We need more data. It could be any of the above (though demonic possession that leads to this kind of murder seems to be rare in the Western World).
Our society has cast its vote for # 2 as the default opinion for any quirky behavior. Perhaps, in some cases, it may turn out to be 1 (where is that Dr. House when you need him?).
Most Fundamentalists preachers have cast their vote for # 3, or 1, with great skepticism toward 2.
And in all fairness, there can be crossover. 1 may lead to lasting 2 even after 1 is cleared up. 3 may lead to 2. 4 may lead to 1, per several passages in Scripture.
The problem is default judgment.
An MRI.
A series of wisely asked questions from both a psychological and spiritual point of view.
Some blood tests.
Our society and many of us preachers are being equally foolish in rushing to judgment in these matters.
We don’t know what the Doctor said. But it may have been just what the patient needed. Or not.
To: R Pittman,
What in the world are you posting about? Your so called hypothetical situation has nothing to do with what I said or the simple subject of the thread. Yes, we give the Gospel to all possible. But as I said, here we do not have enough facts to determine why the mother objected. I do know that some of the mentally ill misunderstand biblical truth. Our son does so. You must understand what and when to share such truth.
Your lengthy discourse on mental illness and related subjects is interesting but apparently involves a great deal of misunderstanding (and that is an understatement). From what I can take from your discourse you are back on the 1950s to 70s. Today, mental illness of various kinds still has a great deal of mystery. However, we now have a great deal of information that has allowed us to have a large amount of medication for physiological causes and increased understanding for diagnosis. Diagnosis and treatment monitored by Brain scans is now used by some Psychiatrists. The medical model and treatment has yielded good results for many. Today many are functioning in society who just twenty years ago would be institutionalized We praise God for the medical discoveries here just as we do for advances in Cancer and heart disease diagnosis and treatment.
Differentiating between Demonization and physical mental illness is fairly easily seen in the way the onset occurs, symptoms progress, and the effect of treatment. Types of symptoms also are involved.
As I said in my prior opening statement, we do not have enough information from this story. Was the Dr. a Psychiatrist? Was he the regular treating Psychiatrist and thus familiar with the patient? Why was the mother upset? None of this is given. One must jump to the conclusion that the issue is the duty and permissibility of sharing Christian truth in professional dealings. Also, I would understand that since the mother is so involved with a 24 year old that the probability is some lack of personal competence on the part of the patient. However, there is not enough information given as to that fact.
Also your computer model of software and hardware is wholly inadequate regarding the biblical model and characteristics of the soul or immaterial part of man, and the Brain through which the soul operates within the earthly lifetime of a person. The soul and body interaction is complex but can be understood in terms of Biblical revelation regarding Creation, man, and the spiritual part of man.
I am presently the Director of an organization called “The Christian Alliance on Mental Illness.” We work with personal caregivers and professionals such as Psychiatric Nurses, Psychiatrists, Social Workers, and some Psychologists, in providing support, support groups, and referral for information for the genuinely mentally ill and their caregivers. We are working with and through local churches who are accepting of the available professional help and present enlightened view of mental illness and spiritual aspects of problems. We do not deal with much of what is termed as Psychological or spiritual problems. Such can be handled by the Biblical counselor. We specifically avoid Churches and Pastors that hold to the Nouthetic Counseling or other such Biblical models that do not understand Brain disease originated mental illness. We also avoid Charismatic oriented churches and individuals. Such usually expect a quick miraculous healing or have an unbiblical viewpoint regarding Demonization.
Within the Fundamentalist Christian environment, we have found that many IFBX churches, especially those who would endorse the KJVO doctrine, have such wide ignorance of the Biblical and theological considerations involved, and also of the fields of Psychology and Psychiatry as to be operating from a viewpoint of ignorance and prejudice on such matters. So we do not endeavor to interact with them on such important matters.
It is our hope and prayer that Christians, and particular Pastors, will not be quick to express opinions regarding mental illness, Psychiatry, and spiritual factors regarding such, without first doing some substantial reading in the literature available. Pastors seem to find it necessary to be the expert on everything and have an opinion on everything without having an understanding of the basics of the subject they are speaking about. Some books on so called Biblical counseling published recently reflect the viewpoints once held in Psychiatry and Psychology of thirty to fifty years ago and have quotes from books of that past era.
What in the world are you posting about? Your so called hypothetical situation has nothing to do with what I said or the simple subject of the thread. Yes, we give the Gospel to all possible. But as I said, here we do not have enough facts to determine why the mother objected. I do know that some of the mentally ill misunderstand biblical truth. Our son does so. You must understand what and when to share such truth.
Your lengthy discourse on mental illness and related subjects is interesting but apparently involves a great deal of misunderstanding (and that is an understatement). From what I can take from your discourse you are back on the 1950s to 70s. Today, mental illness of various kinds still has a great deal of mystery. However, we now have a great deal of information that has allowed us to have a large amount of medication for physiological causes and increased understanding for diagnosis. Diagnosis and treatment monitored by Brain scans is now used by some Psychiatrists. The medical model and treatment has yielded good results for many. Today many are functioning in society who just twenty years ago would be institutionalized We praise God for the medical discoveries here just as we do for advances in Cancer and heart disease diagnosis and treatment.
Differentiating between Demonization and physical mental illness is fairly easily seen in the way the onset occurs, symptoms progress, and the effect of treatment. Types of symptoms also are involved.
As I said in my prior opening statement, we do not have enough information from this story. Was the Dr. a Psychiatrist? Was he the regular treating Psychiatrist and thus familiar with the patient? Why was the mother upset? None of this is given. One must jump to the conclusion that the issue is the duty and permissibility of sharing Christian truth in professional dealings. Also, I would understand that since the mother is so involved with a 24 year old that the probability is some lack of personal competence on the part of the patient. However, there is not enough information given as to that fact.
Also your computer model of software and hardware is wholly inadequate regarding the biblical model and characteristics of the soul or immaterial part of man, and the Brain through which the soul operates within the earthly lifetime of a person. The soul and body interaction is complex but can be understood in terms of Biblical revelation regarding Creation, man, and the spiritual part of man.
I am presently the Director of an organization called “The Christian Alliance on Mental Illness.” We work with personal caregivers and professionals such as Psychiatric Nurses, Psychiatrists, Social Workers, and some Psychologists, in providing support, support groups, and referral for information for the genuinely mentally ill and their caregivers. We are working with and through local churches who are accepting of the available professional help and present enlightened view of mental illness and spiritual aspects of problems. We do not deal with much of what is termed as Psychological or spiritual problems. Such can be handled by the Biblical counselor. We specifically avoid Churches and Pastors that hold to the Nouthetic Counseling or other such Biblical models that do not understand Brain disease originated mental illness. We also avoid Charismatic oriented churches and individuals. Such usually expect a quick miraculous healing or have an unbiblical viewpoint regarding Demonization.
Within the Fundamentalist Christian environment, we have found that many IFBX churches, especially those who would endorse the KJVO doctrine, have such wide ignorance of the Biblical and theological considerations involved, and also of the fields of Psychology and Psychiatry as to be operating from a viewpoint of ignorance and prejudice on such matters. So we do not endeavor to interact with them on such important matters.
It is our hope and prayer that Christians, and particular Pastors, will not be quick to express opinions regarding mental illness, Psychiatry, and spiritual factors regarding such, without first doing some substantial reading in the literature available. Pastors seem to find it necessary to be the expert on everything and have an opinion on everything without having an understanding of the basics of the subject they are speaking about. Some books on so called Biblical counseling published recently reflect the viewpoints once held in Psychiatry and Psychology of thirty to fifty years ago and have quotes from books of that past era.
[Mike Durning] Here’s a new hypothetical situation, addressing a different part of the problem:
You are a pastor. You are awakened by a call in the night. It is one of your church’s members. He reports that his wife has been increasingly sullen for weeks, without explanation. She did not want to go to church, or anywhere else in public. She awakened him this night, standing over him with a sharp knife, indicating her intention to kill him because “Satan says so”.
Your judgment is that she is…
1). Suffering from a neurological problem or disease that is affecting normal brain function. Perhaps there is a contagion or exposure to an odd drug.
2). Mentally ill.
3). Suffering from a spiritual problem
4). Without doubt possessed by a demon.
When all you have is a hammer, all the problems tend to be viewed as nails. A neurologist might imagine a brain problem of some sort. A psychologist would explain it psychologially. Some preachers would lean toward # 3. And Charismatics would inevitably lean toward # 4.
You are making a default judgment yourself when you state that charismatics would inevitably resort to no. 4. I credit them with more wisdom than that. Unless they had discerment that it was possession I think a fair number would withhold judgment yet hold it as a possibilty.
Richard Pajak
[Richard Pajak] You are making a default judgment yourself when you state that charismatics would inevitably resort to no. 4. I credit them with more wisdom than that. Unless they had discerment that it was possession I think a fair number would withhold judgment yet hold it as a possibilty.Richard, I said “lean toward”. Their world-view tends to pre-suppose demonic intervention as a likely scenario for many more problems. This does not at all mean they all would make a default judgment.
Great example: I was involved with the funeral of a man who committed suicide. The man went to a Pentecostal church. My foster-son was dating the daughter. The Pentecostal pastor had the funeral, but I had a small supporting role.
I watched him handle the situation very well. Most interesting to me, however, was watching him wisely fend off the speculations of demonic activity in the matter which were made by his church-folk over and over again.
I am saying it is the Charismatic first assumption, just as a “spiritual problem but not a psychological problem” is a common first assumption for Fundamentalists and many Conservative Evangelicals. But that does not mean we all stay with our first assumption after all the evidence is in.
[RPittman] [Mike, what is the difference between a neurological problem and mental illness? In brain science today, the thinking is that all thoughts, emotions, and behavior are chemically based. Dysfunctions are too much or too little of a substance or the improper coding of a molecule, etc. Production of certain proteins seem to play a prominent role in many dysfunctions. So, how are you differentiating?Ah, but Roland, not all agree with this assessment. Some see room for psychological problems that are not neurologically based (or not entirely so). Certainly, some church folk who are not psychology professionals do. So it belongs as a separate category for purposes of my question, because some may wish to define what you call one as two different things.
I myself question whether the evidence firmly supports that all dysfunctions are chemically based in the way some are saying. While I’m not a psychiatrist, my pastorate has put me in the role of helping with many who suffer from psychological illness. I have found that medications that are designed to restore a lost chemical balance only take the sufferer part-way, and that core issues in thinking (mainly spiritual in nature) still exist and must be dealt with before total relief occurs. Sure, this may mean our modern medications are only blunt instruments, but it may also mean that the dysfunction appears for reasons purely in the person’s state of mind, and prolonged lack of correction brings about a chemical change that locks them into the problem. The question is, are mind and brain one, or two? The answer, of course, is that neither answer fully explains the complicated relationship between the two. But the modern solution that reduces them to one item only may be flawed. I think it is, for reasons beyond the scope of this thread, though a Google search on “brain” AND “quantum computing” can yield some interesting scholarly articles.
[RPittman] Mike, I appreciate what I think that you trying to do here. You are trying to give a pastoral perspective when faced with a difficult scenario. May I add an observation. It’s not the pastor’s duty to diagnose the problem. It is his duty to help his church member find help and workable solutions. This is a good argument for pastors to be well educated and knowledgeable in things beyond theology alone. There are literally hundreds of therapies and views on counseling, psychology, and psychiatry out there. Even medical opinions are divided. Some are compatible with Biblical teachings and some are not. The wise pastor is knowledgeable enough to lead his people to the right places for real help compatible with Scripture.But the pastor must wisely determine who the best helper is by adopting, testing, and discarding theories on where the problem lies. This is not diagnosis in the medical sense. But it is a necessary first step to getting one. And should the problem prove purely spiritual, psychological treatment would be a poor choice. What’s more, committing a demonically possessed person for a psych eval is a recipe for a very fruitless few weeks of wasted time.
[Mike Durning]Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.[Richard Pajak] You are making a default judgment yourself when you state that charismatics would inevitably resort to no. 4. I credit them with more wisdom than that. Unless they had discerment that it was possession I think a fair number would withhold judgment yet hold it as a possibilty.Richard, I said “lean toward”. Their world-view tends to pre-suppose demonic intervention as a likely scenario for many more problems. This does not at all mean they all would make a default judgment.
Great example: I was involved with the funeral of a man who committed suicide. The man went to a Pentecostal church. My foster-son was dating the daughter. The Pentecostal pastor had the funeral, but I had a small supporting role.
I watched him handle the situation very well. Most interesting to me, however, was watching him wisely fend off the speculations of demonic activity in the matter which were made by his church-folk over and over again.
I am saying it is the Charismatic first assumption, just as a “spiritual problem but not a psychological problem” is a common first assumption for Fundamentalists and many Conservative Evangelicals. But that does not mean we all stay with our first assumption after all the evidence is in.
Richard Pajak
Discussion