Bob Jones Sr.: "Billy, if you leave ...all you can amount to would be a poor country Baptist preacher somewhere out in the sticks"
BJ Sr.’s prediction:
“Given the network of fundamentalism, it was not an unreasonable prediction. But of course it turned out to be quite wrong.”
However, given what the Scriptures teach I would say BJ Sr. demonstrated a contempt for divine providence in his unwarranted prediction which is quite unreasonable for a man allegedly so mature in the faith. What a lesson for every student of the Bible.
Billy, if you leave and throw your life away at a little country Bible school, the chances are you’ll never be heard of.Observation at the blog:
At best, all you can amount to would be a poor country Baptist preacher somewhere out in the sticks.
“Given the network of fundamentalism, it was not an unreasonable prediction. But of course it turned out to be quite wrong.”
However, given what the Scriptures teach I would say BJ Sr. demonstrated a contempt for divine providence in his unwarranted prediction which is quite unreasonable for a man allegedly so mature in the faith. What a lesson for every student of the Bible.
I understand the modernist-fundamentalist divide.
I understand the fundamentalist-new evangelical divide.
I have trouble understanding the fundamentalist-fundamentalist divide which seems to be where we are at today.
I understand the fundamentalist-new evangelical divide.
I have trouble understanding the fundamentalist-fundamentalist divide which seems to be where we are at today.
I remember in my high school years being told that if I did not go to Bob Jones University, I would not amount to much. I did go to BJU but not for that reason. Then after going to BJU, I was told that I would not amount to much if I did not switch from BJU to another school.
I have not made Time Magazine’s top religious leaders yet. If only I would have went to the right school :O
On a more serious note, even the best of men in ministry seem to resort to these abusive and controlling words in dealing with men they say they are concerned about. May the Lord help us to avoid this type of stuff.
I have not made Time Magazine’s top religious leaders yet. If only I would have went to the right school :O
On a more serious note, even the best of men in ministry seem to resort to these abusive and controlling words in dealing with men they say they are concerned about. May the Lord help us to avoid this type of stuff.
Does anyone know the source of the famous quote? I’ve heard it. I think I may have read it in Graham’s autobiography. I’m not sure there is any source outside of that. Is there a letter or a note that says as much that has been found? I’m not arguing that Graham is lying. I’m not saying Jones didn’t say it. I’d just like to know the source of it.
Matt
Matt
Which famous quote?
Having grown up in “the sticks”, I sure wish I would have met a “poor country Baptist preacher” when I was younger. I wasn’t properly introduced to the Gospel for 35 years, with nothing close to a Baptist church near the town where I grew up. I sure hope there are still men who aspire to be such a preacher, ‘cause there are towns out there in those “sticks” with people who need to hear from them.
Yes, I think it’s from Graham’s autobiography. I did a paper on BG in college for my Baptist History or Contemporary Theology class, and I remember reading that even back then and going “Wow” in my head.
"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells
[ChrisS] Having grown up in “the sticks”, I sure wish I would have met a “poor country Baptist preacher” when I was younger. I wasn’t properly introduced to the Gospel for 35 years, with nothing close to a Baptist church near the town where I grew up. I sure hope there are still men who aspire to be such a preacher, ‘cause there are towns out there in those “sticks” with people who need to hear from them.
Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura http://healtheland.wordpress.com
[ChrisS] Having grown up in “the sticks”, I sure wish I would have met a “poor country Baptist preacher” when I was younger. I wasn’t properly introduced to the Gospel for 35 years, with nothing close to a Baptist church near the town where I grew up. I sure hope there are still men who aspire to be such a preacher, ‘cause there are towns out there in those “sticks” with people who need to hear from them.
Yeah - my first thought was, “what about people in the sticks who need a poor baptist preacher?”
Of course, if your focus is on fame and fortune, you tend to have contempt for such people.
Despair does not lie in being weary of suffering, but in being weary of joy. G.K. Chesterton
It’s not that I think Bob Jones was infallible or anything. He had as many flaws as anyone. But there’s not enough here to know what was really going on.
Just for example, if Billy Graham was being corrected for a bad attitude towards the rules and he was just running away from a tough situation, rather than sticking it out, the “you’ll never amount to anything if you do this” might not sound so bad.
It’s entirely appropriate to warn someone who suffers from “cut and run syndrome” that they run the risk of wasting the abilities God has given them. In those exact words? Maybe not, but I doubt Billy Graham would have claimed 100% perfect recall of a conversation 40 or more years earlier. He recorded the gist of the statement as he recalled it. Unless the conversation was recorded or someone was taking notes, I doubt anyone except the Lord can really be sure which exact words were used.
On its face, as a stand-alone statement, it’s not very impressive, but we don’t know the context, do we?
Fortunately, we don’t really have any obligation to know the context and make judgments as to how good or bad a statement like that is. We have enough to do watching our own words and encouraging those around us to speak appropriately.
Just for example, if Billy Graham was being corrected for a bad attitude towards the rules and he was just running away from a tough situation, rather than sticking it out, the “you’ll never amount to anything if you do this” might not sound so bad.
It’s entirely appropriate to warn someone who suffers from “cut and run syndrome” that they run the risk of wasting the abilities God has given them. In those exact words? Maybe not, but I doubt Billy Graham would have claimed 100% perfect recall of a conversation 40 or more years earlier. He recorded the gist of the statement as he recalled it. Unless the conversation was recorded or someone was taking notes, I doubt anyone except the Lord can really be sure which exact words were used.
On its face, as a stand-alone statement, it’s not very impressive, but we don’t know the context, do we?
Fortunately, we don’t really have any obligation to know the context and make judgments as to how good or bad a statement like that is. We have enough to do watching our own words and encouraging those around us to speak appropriately.
Billy Graham gave us the context, you are ignoring it. Your appeal to not believing Bob Jones Sr. was not infallible (i.e. God) is no valid appeal at all. Your prejudice is not disguised by this.
I wonder if you (Alex) read Graham’s autobiography. I did, and as I recall he shows a great deal of contempt for Jones Sr. while also (surprisingly) showing some affection for Jones Jr. That’s not what I expected. As this particular quote is published so often it seems to me to be fair to ask where it came from. If it is only from Graham’s memory without any corroboration, then Graham’s veracity comes into play. Remember that he was still a teenager when this is suppposed to have happened. I know that teenagers have selective hearing (I think that’s what my dad called it). To so accurately quote word-for-word a statement like that seems difficult to believe, especially with the passing of so many years. We give Graham the benefit of the doubt because (1) Jones Sr. is not around to substantiate or refute it, and (2) because of what he became (if you appreciate the overall scope of Billy Graham’s ministry).
I think that JG’s argument is valid.
Moreover, I’m not sure it’s such a good thing to be writing books like Graham’s autobiography and quoting people who are dead and cannot defend themselves. That sounds more like gossip than anything.
Matt
I think that JG’s argument is valid.
Moreover, I’m not sure it’s such a good thing to be writing books like Graham’s autobiography and quoting people who are dead and cannot defend themselves. That sounds more like gossip than anything.
Matt
Matt,
Check Dan Turner’s Standing Without Apology. I think he documents it as being in a letter, but I may be mistaken.
Check Dan Turner’s Standing Without Apology. I think he documents it as being in a letter, but I may be mistaken.
[Matt Walker] I wonder if you (Alex) read Graham’s autobiography. I did, and as I recall he shows a great deal of contempt for Jones Sr. while also (surprisingly) showing some affection for Jones Jr.I did and have given it as a gift to someone as well but that is irrelevant to the issue. But I do see where BJ Sr. demonstrated contempt for the providence of God in his poor comments to Graham, but hey, let’s not discuss that, right?
[Matt Walker] That’s not what I expected. As this particular quote is published so often it seems to me to be fair to ask where it came from. If it is only from Graham’s memory without any corroboration, then Graham’s veracity comes into play. Remember that he was still a teenager when this is suppposed to have happened. I know that teenagers have selective hearing (I think that’s what my dad called it).So you recall your dad teaching you that teenagers have selective hearing but somehow at a more impressionable moment, in fact a pivotal one, you question Graham’s ability to recall what he was told by BJ Sr? Priceless.
[Matt Walker] To so accurately quote word-for-word a statement like that seems difficult to believe, especially with the passing of so many years. We give Graham the benefit of the doubt because (1) Jones Sr. is not around to substantiate or refute it, and (2) because of what he became (if you appreciate the overall scope of Billy Graham’s ministry).No we give Graham the benefit of the doubt because he has not demonstrated himself to be a liar and after over 50 years of ministry, whether one agrees with his views and practices, he has demonstrated the kind of integrity that far surpasses the lack of accountability by the Jones.
[Matt Walker] I think that JG’s argument is valid.JG’s argument is based in the objection that the context was not given, but it was, hence it remains invalid.
[Matt Walker] Moreover, I’m not sure it’s such a good thing to be writing books like Graham’s autobiography and quoting people who are dead and cannot defend themselves. That sounds more like gossip than anything. MattWell by all means when there is nothing left we should moralize about something that frankly has not violated any moral standard. History is not always flattering. Too bad for Bob Jones Sr. on this occasion. Billy Graham no doubt could have recalled the event in much more unflattering terms but he did not, he demonstrated grace.
Hey but don’t let me stop you from rushing to research “Standing Without Apology” in your stated concern for corroboration.
A stunning statement in private by Bob Jones, Senior was to be followed up by an even more stunning statement by Junior. There was obviously something simmering beneath the surface with Graham and the Jones.
From Time Magazine around 1966….
Bob Jones Jr. denounced Graham as a false teacher who “is doing more harm to the cause of Jesus Christ than any living man.”
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,941981,00.html#ixzz1Lu…
I once had a college professor corner me and tell me that he would follow me for my entire ministry giving me bad recommendations and that “no man in America will ever hire you” because I accidentally signed up for two ministries that met at the same time as a freshman “poor country boy” who was the first in his family to ever attend college. I had to drop one and the intimidation was long and hard when I chose this guy’s ministry to drop. I called my dad feeling that my ministry potential was ruined forever and he just laughed and told me to let the Lord take care of it all.
Abusing one’s position to manipulate and intimidate are hardly virtuous methods for leaders in ministry.
From Time Magazine around 1966….
Bob Jones Jr. denounced Graham as a false teacher who “is doing more harm to the cause of Jesus Christ than any living man.”
Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,941981,00.html#ixzz1Lu…
I once had a college professor corner me and tell me that he would follow me for my entire ministry giving me bad recommendations and that “no man in America will ever hire you” because I accidentally signed up for two ministries that met at the same time as a freshman “poor country boy” who was the first in his family to ever attend college. I had to drop one and the intimidation was long and hard when I chose this guy’s ministry to drop. I called my dad feeling that my ministry potential was ruined forever and he just laughed and told me to let the Lord take care of it all.
Abusing one’s position to manipulate and intimidate are hardly virtuous methods for leaders in ministry.
Dan Burrell Cornelius, NC Visit my Blog "Whirled Views" @ www.danburrell.com
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