Bixby's take on Northland

[KD Merrill]

He’s wrong about separation being the primary assertion of fundamentalism.

As I understand it, fundamentalism’s primary assertion is that man’s chief end is the glory of God. Everything else falls into line based on that premise.

Evangelicalism’s primary focus, however, is gospel-centric and missional in philosophy. An article in the Christian Post stated, “Rather than being program-focused, the missional church prides itself on being people-focused.” In other words, evangelicalism is humanistic in its very nature, thereby contributing to its high degree of comfort with pragmatism and compromise.

Just my two cents.

Doug

Doug, your two cents wouldn’t buy much in my church. We are evangelical. We are doxological (and we will explicitly say as much a dozen times in a service). But the God that I see in the Bible has given his people a mission. It is far from humanistic to minister to the needs of people. The two great commandments are Love God and Love Others. I’m just not sure how you split the two up and say that you can have one without the other.

The citation from the Christian Post doesn’t really prove your point (or even have the intention of saying what you say it does). It is a good thing to focus on people rather than programs, isn’t it?

[KD Merrill]

He’s wrong about separation being the primary assertion of fundamentalism.

As I understand it, fundamentalism’s primary assertion is that man’s chief end is the glory of God. Everything else falls into line based on that premise.

Evangelicalism’s primary focus, however, is gospel-centric and missional in philosophy. An article in the Christian Post stated, “Rather than being program-focused, the missional church prides itself on being people-focused.” In other words, evangelicalism is humanistic in its very nature, thereby contributing to its high degree of comfort with pragmatism and compromise.

Just my two cents.

Doug

What could be more pragmatic than this? See below:

Kevin Bauder stated, “In view of some of the speculations about Scott Aniol’s current work and theology, I have taken the liberty of getting a few clarifications from him. What follows is what Scott said to me, with his permission to share it as I saw fit” (Thu, 05/02/2013 - 5:39pm).

6. I recognize and appreciate the difficulty some fundamentalists may have with the fact that I am teaching at at Southwester Baptist Seminary. It has already hindered some fellowship with a few churches, and while I am saddened by this and disagree with their decision to break fellowship with me, I understand their reasons and appreciate their caution. I made this decision with much prayer and counsel from men like Pastor Harding, who enthusiastically encouraged me to teach at Southwestern. He told me that while it may cause some to break fellowship with me, he didn’t think it would be many, and my decision to teach here would in no way hinder my relationship with him or with FBC Troy. He even consulted his deacons who shared that sentiment.

Dmyers,

Just for the record, I hope you are not associating KJVO churches, Crown College, and West Coast Baptist College with the strange teaching that you mentioned in your post. Most people who are KJVO and supporters of those two particular institutions would strongly disagree with how that pastor handled the issue of divorce and remarriage.

[Don Sailer]

6. I recognize and appreciate the difficulty some fundamentalists may have with the fact that I am teaching at at Southwester Baptist Seminary. It has already hindered some fellowship with a few churches, and while I am saddened by this and disagree with their decision to break fellowship with me, I understand their reasons and appreciate their caution. I made this decision with much prayer and counsel from men like Pastor Harding, who enthusiastically encouraged me to teach at Southwestern. He told me that while it may cause some to break fellowship with me, he didn’t think it would be many, and my decision to teach here would in no way hinder my relationship with him or with FBC Troy. He even consulted his deacons who shared that sentiment.

This to me is where Bixby’s 2nd point resonates and why we see young people leaving fundamentalism. Even Dr. Harding mentions above, and what appears to have already happened, is separation within circles of fundamentalism over Scott Aniol. Has Aniol erred? Is he teaching a different gospel? I don’t believe he is. But because some people don’t agree with the SBC, and because Scott is associated with the SBC they practice second degree separation. Instead of focusing on the overwhelming teaching of the body of Christ, there is the focus that if you don’t look like me, or you put your arms around someone who doesn’t look like me, we must separate. Many in fundamentalism practice a sloppy form of discernment. It is based on outward conditions instead of looking at the details and understanding them. It is easier to just link Scott with the SBC and throw him out, than to focus on and truly understand the details, and what it really means to separate. It is a shame that fundamentalists don’t inject themselves more into conservative evangelicism. I applaud Scott, and I hope he does have a positive impact. The more moderate side of fundamentalism continues to put up walls of fellowship with conservative evangelicals, and the truth is that many young people are just tired of the wall after wall after wall and are jumping ship (maybe jumping too far), but they have no other option. They are faced with “either look like this” or “leave”.

This is slightly off topic, and local to me, but there is some reference to national trends, and should provide some insight into Northland, and other schools…

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20130508_Revenue_picture_not_upbeat_for_area_colleges.html

[C. D. Cauthorne Jr.]

Dmyers,

Just for the record, I hope you are not associating KJVO churches, Crown College, and West Coast Baptist College with the strange teaching that you mentioned in your post. Most people who are KJVO and supporters of those two particular institutions would strongly disagree with how that pastor handled the issue of divorce and remarriage.

C.D.: I wish I were more confident that what you say is true, though admittedly my engagement with KJVO folks is limited. The KJVO person with whom I’ve had the most contact is my former father-in-law (call him “L”), who shared the KJVO pastor’s conviction that pornography = adultery = biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage. L has been KJVO since the ‘60’s, is divorced but never remarried, and teaches Sunday School at a different KJVO church that likewise supports Crown. I have no way to know, but I assume his church likewise subscribes to this conviction.

Dmyers,

The different positions on divorce and remarriage within the KJVO camp are just as varied as the differing positions within Evangelicalism. They range from an absolute “No” to both divorce and remarriage to a very loose position of once the divorce goes through you can remarry — and there are plenty of variants in between.

I had a friend who heard a Crown student sing in a local church with taped accompaniment. He came to me and said, “I don’t like Crown’s music standards.” Little did he know that NO ONE at Crown College uses taped music to sing.

It bothers me when people lump all KJVO people together. There are godly people and nuts within the KJVO camp — just like within any other group.

[iKuyper]

Jeff,

My point is this: When evangelicals are inconsistent, fundamentalists cry out “anathema!” But when Fundamentalists fail to apply their own principles, it’s “Oh well, we can extend grace.”

So then, since you’re recognizing that both “sides” fail to apply separatistic principles, let’s remove “separation” from the debate… Which side, then, majors on the majors, especially in light of all the music talk?

iK

iK

you seem to think music is adiaphora. Not everyone agrees.

now Tetreau is using Straight Ahead to sign off; Harding, Straight up, what should I use? Hummmm

I’ll be back? Nope that one’s been used. Go ahead, make my day? That too. Win one for the Gipper? Naw. Frankly, my dear, oooops, not on SI. Live long and prosper? May the force be with you? I’m going to make him an offer he can’t refuse? Better, but not quite. Hummmm

Goodnight, Johnboy!

So let me get this straight. Secondary separation is correct because even conservative evangelicals do it. But we can’t fellowship with conservative evangelicals who practice secondary separation because they don’t always practice it exactly the way we do.

Am I missing something here?

[G. N. Barkman]

So let me get this straight. Secondary separation is correct because even conservative evangelicals do it. But we can’t fellowship with conservative evangelicals who practice secondary separation because they don’t always practice it exactly the way we do.

Am I missing something here?

This is really the issue, I believe. It also stems from a movement mentality - they are not “us” so we can’t fully join or support them. Groups like the FBFI, Ohio Bible Fellowship and American Council of Christian Churches (a fundamentalist association) have gone on record opposing the SBC and calling for separation from Together for the Gospel and other evangelicals.

Here are the statements of OBF and ACCC.

Here is the approval of FBFI, and another statement here from FBFI. I also look in vain here to find any retraction of FBFI’s consistent call to separate form the SBC.

Harding is a board member in the FBFI, and his admission that he doesn’t need to separate from Scott Aniol is going against the practice of fundamental groups like those listed above.

Some have said this points to music being more important than doctrine now, for fundmaentalist movement groups when it comes to drawing lines of separation. Others have highlighted that this illustrates the inconsistency because as was stated by others here on SI, Scott gets a pass but so many other young men who join the SBC or BGC or some other non-fundamentalist group, get shunned and separated from. Yes the cooperative program and the very nature of the SBC and even the BGC for that matter, is more complex than many people know (as Harding had stated). But that just proves why you can’t rush to wirte off every young man who leaves fundamentalism as a traitor to the very ideal of fundamentalism. And then they still love Scott, though.

My position is that the longstanding separation from groups like the SBC is not healthy for fundamentalism. I think they could have more influence if they more consistently and readily integrated with other Type C people (as Tetreau would dub them). So ironically, I’m happy at these developments. But I’m also sad that no one in movement fundamentalism seems ready to own up to the fact that things are changing, and that this is okay - oh and that we were wrong in our former position. The only one who’s done that lately is Matt Olson who was summarily shown the back door, or at least his direction had something to do with his departure as Bixby claims in this post.

I wholeheartedly agree with Bixby’s assessment. But I guess since I’m outside fundamentalism in a Type C kind of church, my thoughts won’t necessarily count. I think that for too long the modus operandii of fundamentalists (of a wide assortment of stripes) has been to preserve our movement and inculcate (whether intentionally or not) and “us vs. them” mentality. Fundamentalists are quick to say who’s in and who’s out, and a fear of Dr. so-and-so keeps many in the movement with their mouths shut and their feet in line. That aura has permeated fundamentalism from BJU to PCC to Crown to WestCoast to Hammond and everywhere in between. And yes I’m defining the movement by institutions and colleges, because that is how fundamentalism has aligned itself over the years - since they so firmly eschew denominations and are leery of too much control in any associations.

I do wish Northland the best, and am hopeful that their trajectory of change will continue. Turning some fundamentalist schools into conservative evangelical schools would have a good effect on evangelicalism as a whole. Or it could.

Here is a music video posted by bju students/grads filmed on campus at BJU. This is where Northland was a few years ago

http://vimeo.com/64505133