BJU to change its Sunday morning format: "BJU will eliminate its Sunday morning service on campus"

Hey Dave, where is the list?

I see this list of recommended churches, but it can’t be exhaustive of the whole area, and there doesn’t seem to be a banned list.

http://www.bju.edu/about-bju/our-community/churches.php

The purpose of the military is to break things and kill people at the will of the government not to instill morals.

The purpose of the Christian college is discipleship not just equipping to get a job. I have children at college and I want the school to move them toward Christ like living. Variations of that can be found in the mission statements of the Christian colleges…and I am paying them to do that with my kids. They have heard my voice for 18 years. I missed some things but in the environment of Christian college they will be growing. I thank the Lord for the Christians employed at the school because they have the same goal for my kids as I. Even though they will miss some things they care for the spiritual maturity of my kids. Because of their constant contact with my kids they will have more spiritual impact than any church my kids attend during their college days.

Jesus band of disciples were a variety of ages not just 18. One of the older ones, Peter had some notable failures.

All we can say with certainty is that a person that gets a cake with 18 candles is going to eat cake. He may eat to much cake and experience problems. Tyler does not seem to want anyone to warn them about the danger of an uncontrolled diet of cake. A lot of people will be nearby expressing their “expert” opinion about cake consumption. Those opinions will be as plentiful as belly buttons…everyone will have one and some will be pretty fuzzy with lint, The “innies” will be more reserved but the “outies” will be pushing their interpretation and philosophy. The “outies” may not be right but because they are more vocal and appealing they will convince listeners. But the “outies” may look like “innies” because of their lack of disciplined restraint in cake eating. If you could have someone with a good cake eating philosophy standing by why wouldn’t you want them to give some leadership?

Ken:

I’m not advocating that everybody join the military. I am simply saying that teaching external conformity to rules does not encourage the Christian to mature. It encourages them to conform.

Tyler does not seem to want anyone to warn them about the danger of an uncontrolled diet of cake.

The school is not the local church, my friend. I don’t view an 18 year old as a child. I view an 18 year old as an adult and treat him as such. The school is there to provide a service (education), not disciple my children.

The purpose of the military is to break things and kill people at the will of the government not to instill morals.

Your idea of the military has evidently been shaped by Hollywood movies. I have killed nobody and I haven’t broken anything. I am not suggesting the military teaches morals. I am stating that 18 year olds are adults and should be treated as such. The same 18 year old who is sitting in his dorm, trying to digest the student handbook of rules, could have a brother piloting a RHIB on a Visit, Board, Search and Seizure team in the Gulf of Mexico. Which one is maturing and which one is sheltered?

18 year olds are adults. If they were treated as such perhaps they’d surprise us. The military proves they can be trusted with enormous responsibilities and still excel. This is why I look at colleges which try to rigidly control every aspect of a student’s life and am very disappointed. It encourages adolescense. You’re not treated like an adult - why act like one?

Furthermore, as today’s news in other institutions would demonstrate, I would argue that if BJU would go so far as to drop those kinds of expectations and “just let adults be adults,” the constituency backlash would be significant. Whether that’s good or bad is beside the point- it would be a reality they’d have to face.

I agree. That doesn’t mean I have to like it!

18 year olds are adults. If they were treated as such perhaps they’d surprise us. The miilitary proves they can be trusted with enormous responsibilities and still excel. This is why I consider a list of “approved churches,” to use but one example, and am very disappointed.

Tyler,

The military trust 18 years olds with many responsibilities- no doubt. At the same time, 18 year olds don’t generally work under their own authority. They operate under the chain of command, and are accountable to an authority structure. 18 year olds don’t get promoted to full bird colonels or even an E-6. Even the military realizes there is a process of maturation that an 18 year old must be subjected to.

The list is nothing more than a level of accountability to an authority structure that a student enters into voluntarily- just like the military, by the way. A moral code may not insure Christian maturity, but neither does it necessitate that it will not take place. Some may enter into the structure under personal constraint, sure (either Bible College or military service). But still, they can’t get in without agreeing to things personally some way or another.

It’s not the presence of authority that’s the problem, but the attitude of authority that unless they enact strict policies, students will go completely off the deep end.

If students are involved in immoral, unethical, or illegal conduct, of course they should face consequences, as these kinds of boundaries are for the protection of the whole student body.

But which church to attend? What kind of music to listen to?

I think this attitude in general is unhealthy. I once heard a dad say, in front of his (then) virgin daughter, that if he didn’t make sure she was chaperoned 24/7, she’d be pregnant by the end of the week. Up until that point, at 22 years of age, she had never done anything to deserve this assessment of her character, but she had also never had the chance to make a decision on her own- about her clothing, music, hair- NOTHING. She couldn’t work a job, have internet access, own a cell phone, drive a car. But hey- it’s for her protection, right?

Unless we give young people the chance to make decisions, neither we nor they know what is in their hearts to do, nor will they ever know what it means to earn someone’s trust. Does granting some liberty mean they will make mistakes? Yes, it does. Will some of those mistakes be tragic? That certainly is a possibility. But we aren’t God the Father or the Holy Spirit, and at some point we have to stop trying to do His job for Him.

[Greg Linscott]

The military trust 18 years olds with many responsibilities- no doubt. At the same time, 18 year olds don’t generally work under their own authority. They operate under the chain of command, and are accountable to an authority structure. 18 year olds don’t get promoted to full bird colonels or even an E-6. Even the military realizes there is a process of maturation that an 18 year old must be subjected to.

Greg,

You’re right that you don’t get given high rank, but as one who joined the Marine Corps Reserve at 18 and then immediately started at BJU right after boot camp, I can tell you that I was treated far more like an adult by the Marine Corps than by BJU. In fact it was very difficult to go on a training evolution where I would be leading a group of Marines (I was a Sergeant by the time I graduated) doing dangerous evolutions involving live ammunition or explosives and then have to go sit in a classroom and be on a campus where “discipleship” meant treating you like you were 12 with the strictest parents in the world.

Also, in this thread there seems to be a negative implication towards an 18 yr old Christian young man or woman who decides to join the military instead of going to college. As one whose job it is to work with those young men and women, I have seen many of them who go into the service and serve the Lord as a light in a dark place. Is it easy - no, but is it something to be avoided, absolutely not. They probably don’t resemble some perfect Bob Jones fundamentalist student, and after the years of combat that many of those young believers have seen, they never will; but they understand life and how to truly follow Christ in a difficult environment. If a young person joins the military and fails to live for the Lord, its not the fault of the military, its the fault of a sinner who either has not truly experienced the redeeming grace of God or has been putting on an act for the sake of their environment.

Susan posted before I could hit send on mine, but she is right. If anything, the environment of oppressive regulations at BJU did more to inflame anger and negative emotions towards Christianity than it did to instill Christlikeness.

However, my time in the Marine Corps actually encouraged me in my faith, because I had to learn on my own where to draw the line and how to actually live my faith in that environment. My early experiences serving the Lord as a Marine are the reason I am a Chaplain today.

In fact it was very difficult to go on a training evolution where I would be leading a group of Marines (I was a Sergeant by the time I graduated) doing dangerous evolutions involving live ammunition or explosives and then have to go sit in a classroom and be on a campus where “discipleship” meant treating you like you were 12 with the strictest parents in the world.

This is precisely the frustration I feel with the current model in Bible Colleges. As a 19 yr old E-5, I was a Watch Commander for a shift of 20 military police officers. I arrested people, wrote incident reports, got puked on, was on the receiving end of some very creative epithets, have some amazing stories and was directly responsible for managing law enforcement response for a community of 3000 Americans overseas while on shift. At 19.

My own experiences are not unique, and they are not the typical experience. But they are legitimate points against the current model of insular discipleship practiced by so many Bible Colleges. It proves that 18 yr-olds can be mature and handle serious matters. Some cannot, granted. But so many can.

Ben,

I appreciate your service to the Lord and our country’s armed forces. Thanks.

I went to Bible college as a married student, so I never lived with the curfews and what not. Let me ask you this: this thread is mainly talking about lists. As a chaplain who labors, not only in a multi-denominational, but multi-faith environment- not talking about chaperoned dating, the “furniture store,” pink and blue sidewalks :) , or any of the other things that make an institution like BJU seem “strict,”- can you think of a better solution that a list of approved churches for the students?

Also, in this thread there seems to be a negative implication towards an 18 yr old Christian young man or woman who decides to join the military instead of going to college.

Not by me. I’m the child of one of those kind of people.

Thanks, Tyler! Also, I didn’t mean to leave you out. You have been arguing exactly what I am saying in regards to Christian colleges. Your experience in the Navy and mine in the Marine Corps, I don’t believe are unique. They are what young men and women all around the world are doing and experiencing for their country, and yet when it comes to fundamentalist education, they are just immature little kids who can’t be trusted. Why not treat them like adults and see how far they can go? Will they always make the right decisions - of course not! But that is how we learn. That is what discipleship and mentoring is for, and if we could better incorporate that into Christian education, we could create true disciples instead of blind followers who end up in the Hammond First Baptists of the world and think that everything is hunky dory, because it is “IFB”. We already have a huge problem in this country with extended adolescence, and I don’t know why the church should ever want to contribute to that problem. An education system for adults should treat adults like adults with the requisite responsibility and consequences that go along with that.

[TylerR]

The school is not the local church, my friend. I don’t view an 18 year old as a child. I view an 18 year old as an adult and treat him as such. The school is there to provide a service (education), not disciple my children.

Tyler, the Bob would disagree with you about this. They would see it as their mission to disciple your children. They believe in “in loco parentis” or “in place of the parents.” If the parent doesn’t believe in that, then they don’t have to send their kids there.

I grew up on a farm, and at 10 years old owned a rifle, a 45lb bow, drove a tractor, brought animals into the world, as well as helping take them out of the world and put them on the table for dinner, and dug buckshot out of my dog’s behind with a pocket knife when he got into someone’s chickens.

My dad died when I was 12, and at that point I took over all household chores, including cooking, as well as any gardening and yardwork that needed done. On 30 acres. That, my friends, is a yard of work!

To go to Bible college and be treated like a mindless imbecile was, frankly, a little bit like .

We have infantilized an entire generation, and are surprised when they don’t grow up until they are thirtysomething? We simply can’t put young people in spiritual bubble wrap and expect them to learn to endure hardness.

Greg, you asked about lists of churches and thats a good question.

I believe that a Christian school should simply ask that a student be active in a church of their choice - period. No denominational or theological requirement at all. Now, having said that, most solid Christian institutions will require some sort of agreement with basic theological beliefs, so in a way that will most likely automatically rule out the more theologically liberal churches because you won’t draw students from there. Also, if a school is associated with a particular denomination, I see no problem with there being financial incentives only given to students within that denomination.

At Southeastern Seminary where I got my MDiv, if I remember correctly, you were required to sign a statement agreeing with the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, which is a very basic statement of faith for the SBC. They did not have any requirements on which churches you could belong to, but Southern Baptist students did get half of their education paid for by the Cooperative Program of the SBC so obviously most students were in SBC churches. North Greenville College, which is a Southern Baptist College very near BJU has become theologically conservative in the last two decades and has a few basic moral rules that it expects its students to follow; but does not require any certain church or type of church. Those students are being discipled and making an impact for Christ all around the world in a way that 20 years ago never happened at NGC. People in the Greenville area see the difference in the campus and the students, and it has nothing to do with rules or church restriction and everything to do with solid theological underpinnings and an attitude of strong academics coupled with grace filled discipleship in the classroom.