Survey: "Among Christians in the U.S., only 38% believe capitalism and the free market are consistent with Christian values"
Christianity is above market systems. It is above politics. Christianity thrives in communist, capitalist, an monarchist systems. Christianity informs believers how to dwell peaceably one with another as much as possible. It also tells us to honor the laws of the land unless they interfere with the proclamation of the gospel. I fear that Christians today have placed politics and economics on a pedestal equal with Christian principles. Christianity tells us how to dwell in the world, and yet not submit to its system of priorities.
All that said, we must also realize that no economic system has a scriptural stamp of approval. I prefer the free market system because even though there will naturally be a wealth gap, it is the best way to provide the most economic good for the most people. People are more careful with wealth when they directly benefit from its good use, and when they directly feel the pain from its poor use. Capitalism accepts that humans are self-interested, and this is a true principle.
Milton Friedman’s statement about managers and profits must be understood in its context. Personally, the manager should have moral constraints. But the focus of his function as manager is profit. Fortunately, the profit motive (when governed by limited laws that protect from extortion, deception, etc.) tends to bring decisions that benefit the society as a whole.
[QUOTE] The essence of capitalism is competition at others’ expense, profit, and materialism.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with this statement. It is true that competition tends to send wealth to those who use it best, and poor users of wealth are thus penalized (whether it is their fault or not). However, this is not a zero sum game. Those who use wealth best actually create more wealth and more opportunities to create even more wealth. This benefits society as a whole and does the most good for the most people out of all the current human-made economic systems. It is not perfect (human invention), it is abused, and it is not Christian. But a perusal of history demonstrates that mankind has benefited greatly from the system.
All that said, we must also realize that no economic system has a scriptural stamp of approval. I prefer the free market system because even though there will naturally be a wealth gap, it is the best way to provide the most economic good for the most people. People are more careful with wealth when they directly benefit from its good use, and when they directly feel the pain from its poor use. Capitalism accepts that humans are self-interested, and this is a true principle.
Milton Friedman’s statement about managers and profits must be understood in its context. Personally, the manager should have moral constraints. But the focus of his function as manager is profit. Fortunately, the profit motive (when governed by limited laws that protect from extortion, deception, etc.) tends to bring decisions that benefit the society as a whole.
[QUOTE] The essence of capitalism is competition at others’ expense, profit, and materialism.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with this statement. It is true that competition tends to send wealth to those who use it best, and poor users of wealth are thus penalized (whether it is their fault or not). However, this is not a zero sum game. Those who use wealth best actually create more wealth and more opportunities to create even more wealth. This benefits society as a whole and does the most good for the most people out of all the current human-made economic systems. It is not perfect (human invention), it is abused, and it is not Christian. But a perusal of history demonstrates that mankind has benefited greatly from the system.
Mr. Pittman,
The general thrust of my post was in response to the cited article. I think that on most points, we are agreed. I certainly did not intend to infer that you equate economics and Christianity. I apologize for being unclear. I also agree that the scriptures speak to economics. I also nearly agree that capitalism promotes selfism. I would probably rephrase the statement to be that capitalism acknowledges and utilizes man’s selfish tendencies, and that all other systems are likewise prone to the abuse of man’s sin. As a friend of capitalism, I am altogether for men and women being able to rejoice in the fruits of their labor. Perhaps I misunderstand the context of Friedman’s quote. I am very open to being educated on this.
I see Capitalism and the Free Market as nearly synonymous. From Wikipedia:
[QUOTE] Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit.
A free market is a market in which there is no economic intervention and regulation by the state, except to enforce taxes, private contracts, and the ownership of property.[/QUOTE]
I suppose that Capitalism emphasizes the profit motive, and perhaps that is what you deem as promoting selfishness. I see it rather as acknowledging this trait in man, and then “capitalizing” (pun intended - I kill me!) on this trait.
In answer to your last post, my loyalty to Capitalism is that I enjoy cars, cell phones, Wal-Mart, Nordstrom, sea food in Elko, Nevada (of all places), etc. I love choices and am pleased that the profit motive has spurred many people to create businesses that aggressively seek out and meet my (any your) needs. More than that, I dislike the restrictive power of regulatory boards and commissions that hamper free choice and the right of hard-workers to enjoy the fruits of their labors. Sure, these boards and commissions say that they are working to protect the public from exploitation, but they usually do much more harm than good. I applaud the goals of such regulation. But the regulators seldom meet their goals, and usually create very negative unintended consequences.
The general thrust of my post was in response to the cited article. I think that on most points, we are agreed. I certainly did not intend to infer that you equate economics and Christianity. I apologize for being unclear. I also agree that the scriptures speak to economics. I also nearly agree that capitalism promotes selfism. I would probably rephrase the statement to be that capitalism acknowledges and utilizes man’s selfish tendencies, and that all other systems are likewise prone to the abuse of man’s sin. As a friend of capitalism, I am altogether for men and women being able to rejoice in the fruits of their labor. Perhaps I misunderstand the context of Friedman’s quote. I am very open to being educated on this.
I see Capitalism and the Free Market as nearly synonymous. From Wikipedia:
[QUOTE] Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit.
A free market is a market in which there is no economic intervention and regulation by the state, except to enforce taxes, private contracts, and the ownership of property.[/QUOTE]
I suppose that Capitalism emphasizes the profit motive, and perhaps that is what you deem as promoting selfishness. I see it rather as acknowledging this trait in man, and then “capitalizing” (pun intended - I kill me!) on this trait.
In answer to your last post, my loyalty to Capitalism is that I enjoy cars, cell phones, Wal-Mart, Nordstrom, sea food in Elko, Nevada (of all places), etc. I love choices and am pleased that the profit motive has spurred many people to create businesses that aggressively seek out and meet my (any your) needs. More than that, I dislike the restrictive power of regulatory boards and commissions that hamper free choice and the right of hard-workers to enjoy the fruits of their labors. Sure, these boards and commissions say that they are working to protect the public from exploitation, but they usually do much more harm than good. I applaud the goals of such regulation. But the regulators seldom meet their goals, and usually create very negative unintended consequences.
I think I am starting to understand where you are coming from. Are you saying that the problem with Capitalism is that it is motivated solely by profit?
I think we would agree that the government should not be legislating Christian values upon businesses. They should merely legislate against fraud (using the term very broadly), and collect enough taxes to fund Constitutionally authorized government functions.
I think we would also agree that people should not engage in business merely to make money. They should also seek the good of their fellow man. I believe many businessmen do this, and many don’t.
If Capitalism means that businessmen check their personal morality at the door, then I am against (in a personal responsibility way) Capitalism. But I am not sure that Capitalism means this. I think Capitalism has more to do with the right to own and use private property (for good or evil, as long as your fellow man is not defrauded or illegally damaged).
I think we would agree that the government should not be legislating Christian values upon businesses. They should merely legislate against fraud (using the term very broadly), and collect enough taxes to fund Constitutionally authorized government functions.
I think we would also agree that people should not engage in business merely to make money. They should also seek the good of their fellow man. I believe many businessmen do this, and many don’t.
If Capitalism means that businessmen check their personal morality at the door, then I am against (in a personal responsibility way) Capitalism. But I am not sure that Capitalism means this. I think Capitalism has more to do with the right to own and use private property (for good or evil, as long as your fellow man is not defrauded or illegally damaged).
Read this book. It’ll straighten you out on what capitalism is all about. It has nothing to do with social Darwinism. Sadly, anti-capitalists have been dominating the PR war for quite some time now. Add to that that we’ve had almost two entire generations grow up with virtually no education in economics.
Add to that that we’ve got people looking to Ayn Rand as their champion of capitalism. (Sad. Though she had a good grasp of the mechanics of markets and understood that value comes from human minds, she was a true materialist and built her defense of capitalism on a completely bankrupt philosophy. She is no friend of conservatives and ultimately no friend of capitalism either).
One of these days I’ll write thorough review of Richards’ book. But no Christian who is anti-capitalist should consider himself well informed without reading it.
[amazon 0061900575 thumbnail]
Add to that that we’ve got people looking to Ayn Rand as their champion of capitalism. (Sad. Though she had a good grasp of the mechanics of markets and understood that value comes from human minds, she was a true materialist and built her defense of capitalism on a completely bankrupt philosophy. She is no friend of conservatives and ultimately no friend of capitalism either).
One of these days I’ll write thorough review of Richards’ book. But no Christian who is anti-capitalist should consider himself well informed without reading it.
[amazon 0061900575 thumbnail]
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
Aaron, thanks for the book recommendation. I may pick it up soon. I’ve been reading http://www.amazon.com/Redeeming-Economics-Rediscovering-Missing-Enterpr…] Redeeming Economics by http://www.eppc.org/scholars/scholarid.73/scholar.asp] John Mueller and have found it fascinating. It advocates a neo-Scholastic economic model based on insights from Aristotle, Augustine, and Aquinas.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
In general, I am in favor of applying theological principles to the public square. I do believe in Christian culture, and that natural law theory provides a bridge for us to speak to unbelievers about such things without either forcibly imposing Christianity or surrendering our positions. So, yes, I don’t understand why fundamentalists, who crusade for countless moral issues, should suddenly buy the idea of an amoral economic system. Maybe many Christians think that capitalism is a moral/ethical system.
In more general terms, I find myself agreeing with much of the general drift of John Milbank’s http://www.amazon.com/Theology-Social-Theory-Political-Profiles/dp/1405…] Theology and Social Theory .
In more general terms, I find myself agreeing with much of the general drift of John Milbank’s http://www.amazon.com/Theology-Social-Theory-Political-Profiles/dp/1405…] Theology and Social Theory .
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
Well, Jay Richards, whom you recommended, seems to think so. He even accepts Rand’s view of selfism. Furthermore, I think you will find Mr. Richards more libertarian than conservative.
No, Richards does a nice job of dicing Rand in Money, Greed and God. He does recognize that she accurately grasped the mechanics of how markets work.
He is pretty anti-collectivist as I recall, so that may be where you’re getting the idea that he accepts Rands radical individualism. But there is much territory between today’s collectivism and Rand’s individualism. There is just about a whole universe between the two.
Some of the conflict here is semantic, Roland, similar to your views on “scholarship” that we’ve tussled over in the past. To me, a distortion of capitalism is not capitalism any more than bad scholarship = all scholarship. So.. I habitually separate the thing itself from how some people implement it. I’m not going to try to insist that everybody use the term “capitalism” the way I do, but when I use the term, I’m usually not including late philosophical distortions of it or unethical implementations of it. I’m not in favor of those.
Charlie… I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying about capitalism as amoral. In Richards, capitalism is an approach that recognizes the reality of self-interest and rejects materialistic theories of value. Though some may excise market mechanics from capitalism and employ these techniques independently from the philosophy behind them, capitalism itself is not amoral.
Views expressed are always my own and not my employer's, my church's, my family's, my neighbors', or my pets'. The house plants have authorized me to speak for them, however, and they always agree with me.
I’m a little late on the convo, but I would recommend Rodney Stark’s book http://www.amazon.com/Victory-Reason-Christianity-Freedom-Capitalism/dp…] The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success . I enjoyed Dorothy Sayers view of the purpose of work in her http://www.amazon.com/Letters-Diminished-Church-Passionate-Arguments/dp…] Letters To A Diminished Church .
jpattisall
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