"At some point the world will make us choose. And if we choose Christ the world will accuse us of hating, condemning, and judging."

Erickson continued: “Many people say we should have legal gay marriage, but not have religious gay marriage. The left will not honor the distinction. … Your church, should it open its doors to all, but refuse to perform a same-sex wedding, will be accused of discrimination. In some places, the church will be forced to stop performing weddings.”

They will first target religious institutions that are not churches. Just like the contraception battle in healthcare that Catholic Universities lost last year, it is not a huge step from this Supreme Court decision to require non-church institutions provide health coverage for same sex partners or to deny religious universities secular accreditation for discrimination against hiring someone with a same sex partner.

I hope our institutions of Christian higher education are formulating a backup plan, because their days of being intertwined with the federal government (i.e., student loans, Pell Grants, veterans benefits, etc.) will surely be numbered if the Supreme Court decides to make sweeping changes through its decisions. As Barry notes, think about how fast these things could change!

I am not an expert on secular accreditation, but I can only guess that also would ultimately be affected, along with things like membership in the NCAA.

Separation of Church and state… Baptists by the hundreds were persecuted for their views. In the 17th and 18th centuries and Europe and America, those who held to believer’s baptism instead infant baptism were whipped, beaten, killed by Catholics and Protestants alike. Being a Baptist meant being more scared of Lutherans and Catholics then it did being scared of Islam and Atheists. Which is why Baptists fought for separation of church and state in the bill of rights. Today a Baptist who truly believes that way is a rare find indeed. Today the average Baptist is with the majority of Christians in believing that freedom is good until it makes me uncomfortable. The same thing is true of this article. Mr. Erickson and Mr. Olasky tell us that young evangelicals think homosexuality is wrong, but they want to allow it so the world will like them… for many that could be true. But what if some of those young evangelicals believe like this young fundamentalist die-hard stick in the mud Baptist, that homosexuality is wrong, but we shouldn’t battle it politically because it is none of our business. Separation of church and state is important not just so atheists and Islam can’t tell us how to live our lives, but so Lutherans, Catholics, and other various denominations can’t either. Yet it works both ways. If you want freedoms to live your lives the way you belief then you have no right to tell another person different. At least not in the political realm. You see, God is the author of morality, yet our government is detached from religion. It has to be in order for religious freedom. When we as Christians try to legislate morality onto non-Christians through politics we are detaching morals from the Author of morality. It goes from being homosexuality is wrong because it is despicable to God, to being homosexuality is wrong because it is despicable to the big bad Christians who hold the moral majority.

The article mentions that if homosexual marriage becomes legal our church will be forced to marry homosexual couples… which is a possibility. That is very far away though. Much farther then people think. Currently every church has every right to turn away any couple for any reason. Pastors turn down heterosexual couples all the time, because of what the couples desire at their wedding, they refuse premarital counseling, or because after premarital counseling the pastor feels that the couple isn’t ready for one of many reasons.

But anything can happen, but this one thing for sure is true. If our churches start getting in trouble, if we start losing access pell grants, benefits, etc… It is entirely our fault, because you see… politically the ball has been in the “Christian’s” hands for the majority of this country’s history. We’ve shown that the only thing we care about is creating a country that makes us comfortable, A country that allows us to have freedom, but so we can live comfortably others’ freedoms are limited. SO WE have set THE Example… politically… we worried so much about the political moral majority that we’ve neglected our mission and our real battlefield… the Spiritual one. We’ve also neglected the education of our children and have allowed non-Christian to educate generations of Christians moving them away from Christianity over time…. The result is the other team is beginning to get the “ball” more often.. And they are only following the example we have set. They are working to create a country where they can be comfortable. A country that only gives Christians freedoms as far as they are not bothering or making them uncomfortable… and the only people we have to blame are ourselves…

So as we continue to fight this battle that is not ours to fight, we will continually set the example for those who don’t share our views. And this will only contribute to our loss of influence due to our hypocracy and “hate.” What we must do with our last moments of “ball” time before we completely lose control is to change our demeanor. Allow freedoms to others so we ourselves will be granted the freedoms we deserve. Fight for others freedoms if only to preserve your own. Not only will give us hope for living lives to where we as Christians are free to practice our beliefs it may open up hearts to the gospel… That may sound like pragmatism, but remember we were never called to submit the world to our will through politics, but to win hearts through relationships. In fact we were told to submit to government so long as we were not disobeying God. When we step out to vote and to talk about politics we should be talking more about freedom of speech, not prevention of gay marriage. Freedom of religion not blocking others freedoms. And once in a great while there is something like abortion were we have to stand up and say an unborn child is a life. But all we as Christians today can talk about are gays and guns…. Just think about it.

Brother Payne,

There is indeed much to think about in your post, and I profoundly disagree with most of it. First, it is hardly just to suggest that our forefathers sought to forge a good and decent nation that would fear God and respect His commandments for the sole reason of making ourselves “comfortable.” Do you really believe that their desire for a good and just society based on biblical principles is a matter of comfort? I don’t think so. Indeed, lots of comfort was forsaken by many to right real wrongs.

And then this:

Allow freedoms to others so we ourselves will be granted the freedoms we deserve. Fight for others freedoms if only to preserve your own. Not only will give us hope for living lives to where we as Christians are free to practice our beliefs it may open up hearts to the gospel…

There is no interest on the left in protecting your freedoms. None. It is extremely naive to think they will roll over for you because you laid down at their feet. That method was tried in Canada.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/11/6758/#note-6758-2

The church has an obligation to say that some things are ruinous for a people and destructive to a society. Yes, relationally we must love all people, but we need not fight for the right of a people to commit national suicide. I, for one, will not cease to fight for the country our fathers wanted. It may be hijacked by decadent evil. It may be time for national decline and it may be the Lord’s will to bring us to a sad end as a people. but it won’t be because I let it happen.

Paynen,

In the not so distant past, Christians were relatively passive when it came to politics. I don’t know how old you are so you may not have a recollection of past impositions committed by the government. Two major events woke the sleeping giant. First, prayer and the Bible was outlawed in public schools in the early 60’s. Okay, so many Christians then chose to either start Christian schools or home school their children. Many states tried to force students back in the public school system by outlawing these methods of education and threatening to take children away if parents did not comply. Second, was the abortion decision in the early 70’s. The fact that innocent children could be extinguished alarmed Christians in this country. Christians felt they had to go on the offensive to protect their rights which led to rise of the Moral Majority which ushered in Christian involvement in politics.

Your theory is ideal, and in a perfect constitutional vacuum, government should be neutral; however, it doesn’t work that way in real life. The forces behind large governments is not to keep religion at bay, but to extinguish it whether by direct force or the gradual drip, drip erosion of rights. History tells us this. A stand against homosexuality is already considered “hate speech” in this country and it is not a stretch to think that the government will act on it in the very near future.

[paynen]

But all we as Christians today can talk about are gays and guns…. Just think about it.

Four paragraphs of revisionist hubris concluded by an absurdly hyperbolic untruth.

That is before my time. I do have somewhat of an understanding of the past. I would never say Christians were passive in government, because the government tended to be Christian. Our government has never been neutral, although in theory it was set up to be. The events you talk about prove my point, When the government was “Christian,” there never was reason to make a fuss. Things were all fine and dandy until adults couldn’t send their students to place that does all the work the Bible says its their job to do, for them. Christians were made uncomfortable exactly like I stated. The second part of that issue, is what I think is a right thing for a Christian to be involved in, fighting for freedom for all to educate children the way they see fit. But in all reality the Bible and prayer being taught in public schools? I don’t like that idea. I don’t want a teacher teaching my children Armenian ideas of Soteriology or Catholic prayers any more then I want them teaching my children evolution and atheism. Abortion is also an issue we must stand for, because the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are what this country should be upholding. An unborn child has a right to life. Although I must say, I do know that in abortions history towards the beginning, only catholics had an issue with it, and it wasn’t tell certain leaders began preaching on it that Protestants even cared. Also know that abortion isn’t really a “Christian” issue there are many atheists and agnostics who believe that a unborn child is a human being just like any other. Which if we came at it at that view we would probably have more success. And lastly the putting together of the moral majority movement was the worst idea ever. It failed, and made the majority of non-Christian America hostile towards Christians. If we would of stood up and supported freedoms when people asked for it, we would probably be a much more Christian nation today then we are. No I can’t say I’ve seen any of that history first hand, but have gone through enough Christian history in a fundamental bible college that I do know what the history is.

And yes my theory is ideal, and difficult, especially after the hole we’ve dug already, but it is not impossible. And even if it is. It is still the ethically correct thing to do as Christians. For demanding morality without offering the Author of morality is in essence immoral. Without God, it really doesn’t matter if two guys next door love each other and want to start a family. It doesn’t directly effect me, may make me uncomfortable, but it is my job to show them the love of Christ and look for opportunities to share the Gospel, not condemn them for their practices, Christ came to save the lost not condemn them, for the Law has already done that. Involvement in politics as a Christian should be an exception to a rule, when its absolutely necessary to protect our freedoms as Christians. It is nigh time we start spending more time worshiping God then worshiping the Christian lifestyle. We are to eat with prostitutes and tax collectors not condemn them. Or have we forgotten the failures of the OT law and its end and fulfillment by Christ at the time of His death?

[Wayne Wilson]

Brother Payne,

There is indeed much to think about in your post, and I profoundly disagree with most of it. First, it is hardly just to suggest that our forefathers sought to forge a good and decent nation that would fear God and respect His commandments for the sole reason of making ourselves “comfortable.” Do you really believe that their desire for a good and just society based on biblical principles is a matter of comfort? I don’t think so. Indeed, lots of comfort was forsaken by many to right real wrongs.

And then this:

Allow freedoms to others so we ourselves will be granted the freedoms we deserve. Fight for others freedoms if only to preserve your own. Not only will give us hope for living lives to where we as Christians are free to practice our beliefs it may open up hearts to the gospel…

There is no interest on the left in protecting your freedoms. None. It is extremely naive to think they will roll over for you because you laid down at their feet. That method was tried in Canada.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/11/6758/#note-6758-2

The church has an obligation to say that some things are ruinous for a people and destructive to a society. Yes, relationally we must love all people, but we need not fight for the right of a people to commit national suicide. I, for one, will not cease to fight for the country our fathers wanted. It may be hijacked by decadent evil. It may be time for national decline and it may be the Lord’s will to bring us to a sad end as a people. but it won’t be because I let it happen.

Perhaps you should read what I posted again. I never said the left will role over, I never said we wouldn’t have to fight for our freedoms, because we will, especially now that we’ve spent all this time preventing others freedoms. The whole moral majority ideology is what will make that fight much more difficult, because we spent so much time fighting for what we don’t need, the fight will be much more difficult for what we do. As much as I love this country and like to hold up the forefathers. They weren’t to keen on the Bible even if they liked the majority it taught. Most of them were deists and Thomas Jefferson ripped all the miracles out of the New Testament and called it heresy. I also ask that you read through your Bible a few times. Especially the areas were Christ talks about the purpose of His church. I’m just curious were you get the idea that the church has obligation to force people to live moral lives (especially when forcing someone to live morally outside of the Author of morals just leaves an individual more desirous of an eternity in Hell).

[Dan Burrell]

[paynen]

But all we as Christians today can talk about are gays and guns…. Just think about it.

Four paragraphs of revisionist hubris concluded by an absurdly hyperbolic untruth.

1 sentence with some big boy (I’m smart) words that contributed nothing to the conversation and attacked one’s intelligence. This is place for thinking minds, not Facebook my friend.

I must at this point admit that any of my ideology for Christians involvent in politics would demand a truly libertarian society that had little tolerance for government involvement.

[paynen]

1 sentence with some big boy (I’m smart) words that contributed nothing to the conversation and attacked one’s intelligence. This is place for thinking minds, not Facebook my friend.

Sorry, Paynen….I have neither the time, nor the patience to try to refute so much misinformation and rhetoric as your initial post contained. I never attacked your intelligence, just your content. “Big boy words” notwithstanding, I think the summation accurately reflects it. Wayne did a fine job of starting a rebuttal and obviously has more patience than I. In the American experiment, the electorate indeed has a need to take moral stands (as if there is such a thing as moral neutrality) just as the King’s and Princes and Judges of the Old Testament did. A failure to lead (and vote into leadership) with righteous ambitions and a moral compass based on Universal Truths invites God’s judgment and the corruption of civilization. Thus the call to be Salt and Light is to help preserve the lantern of righteousness by which the nations may be examined.

Libertarianism will not work in a country with an immoral populace. Adam’s himself warned us of that when he penned that “a nation rightly governed, must first be rightly self-governed.” It appears you have bought into the rhetoric of libertarians and leftists who enjoy using broad brush characterizations of how Christians view “gays and guns” and issue condescending lectures about Jesus eating with prostitutes and Jefferson being a Deist, not an evangelical (duh, like we can’t read the works ourselves and always shout “unclean” when we cross paths with gays and hookers). My liberal students have used those on me so frequently that I’ve grown quite immune to it. The bright-eyed Paulite Libertarian idealism makes for fun spamming of blogs and Facebook, but really aren’t taken all that seriously outside of the vacuum of the Convinced.

If you don’t have the time or the patience to reply appropriately then don’t reply. Either contribute like you are now, or hold your tounge.

You should perhaps listen to your students a bit more. I am far from liberal believe me that. I have not bought into anyone’s rhetoric about anything. But I do believe we have much to learn by the way liberals and secularists view us. To some extent they are right about Christ. You can’t argue that Christ did not spend his time worrying about people. The government in the Roman controlled world was far more anti-Christian then ours today. Yet do we see anywhere in Scripture that Christ or any of disciples were concerned with with controlling and changing politics in any city? The closest thing we see is the defying of government when it goes against God. I’m not saying that we should be tolerant of homosexuality or abortion or anything else.

Let me ask you this question… why homosexual marriage? why gun control? even why abortion?… Why not heterosexual atrocities like pre-marital sex and divorce and infidelity? The answer because those issues don’t make us uncomfortable.. at least not anymore. To God heterosexual sins are no different then homosexual marriage. Why don’t we try to change that politically? or why did Christ and His disciples focus on other things? The answer is it is none of our buisiness. We are given a limited amount of time on this planet… remember that. We have a stewardship of God’s grace in this church age what will we spend our time doing. Shall we strive for a moral society full of obedient unbelievers on their way to hell, Or shall we share the message of Christ to those around us in an increasingly lost and searching world. Striving for the truth of the gospel looking for someone to show them the meaning of life not another person to tell them how to live.

And don’t call me liberal or call me contemporary. Because I very much hold to a lifestyle that is very conservative. I despise contemporary forms of worship and I don’t think one should try to reach people by diving head first into their culture. But I also believe that we should worry about one’s obedience to God after he first believes that God exists and that he is accountable. Outside of that, I don’t care if gay people get married. I can survive without a gun if so be it. And I’ll teach my children about God and share His message whether the government wants me to or not. I believe and will vote for freedoms for all people because that is what I believe is ethically the right thing to do when one does not and can not live in a theocracy with the physical presence of God (the only time a theocracy can work.) In fact even though I would prefer a country full of freedom. I think a bit of marginalization will be good for us, through trials we will grow stronger. If God is with me, who can be against me… If God allows it. bring it on world! I will continue to preach the Gospel of Christ and be a Baptist by name and conviction, hold militantly to the fundamentals of the faith and separation from those who don’t and I will love my neighbor as myself allow him his freedoms and share with him the Gospel as I build a relationship with him. And if he is elect and accepts Christ free gift. I’ll disciple him and show him how we chose to obey God out of love and use discernment. I don’t have time to battle politicians and spread “morality” through government influence.

Brother Payne,

You can do whatever you want with your time. That’s fine. And sharing Christ is a much better use of your time than slamming those who built a great and good nation — at least the best this earth has seen in spite of her many flaws. It is, the Word tells us, righteousness that exalts a nation, not libertarian freedom.

I never said the church has an obligation to force people to live moral lives. What a foolish statement! Such a naive and simplistic description of what constitutes a healthy, productive, and benevolent civilization. The fact is that when the majority of people, even unredeemed people, make choices based on a morality consistent with the Bible, society progresses in healthy ways to the benefit of all.

Creating a moral society in which vices were frowned upon and virtues respected required long years of patient labor, sweat and sacrifice by untold thousands of nameless servants of Christ. You take cheap shots at those great men and women who came before us —who gave us so much. You do so even though you enjoy much residual goodness in our culture that they put there. It shows a smallness of spirit to demean them that way.

Yes, it is a better world when even the majority of unbelievers see the value of integrity, family, fidelity, hard work, honesty, generosity and patriotism. You may wish to read Lewis’ The Abolition of Man sometime and his thoughts on “just sentiments.” These just sentiments are the product of civilization, culture, and education upholding them at all levels. We live in a time when they are almost gone from public life and public education. This is not uncomfortable. It is a tragedy, because it touches every person and denies so many what is good and noble in life. Yes, a culture that delights in Mayberry is a better place than one which delights in Two and a Half Men. The civilization that created the values of Mayberry is worth standing up for and preserving. The civilization that fell to Two and a Half Men needs to have it’s vision raised to better things.

Just sentiments are good for the Gospel, too. Belief in virtue tends to expose our sinfulness when we fall short in living virtuously. It did for me. A society that revels in sin and perversion has little conscience left to be afflicted. The Gospel and Christianity did just fine in the “comfortable” years of public morality. Is a culture that accepts broadly a Christian moral vision the Kingdom of God? No. It is a much better place to live for most people, however, and a truer freedom.

Since the Lord has allowed me the rare and glorious privilege of living in a democratic Republic, and I can make my voice known on the great issues of the day, I will accept the gift with the responsibilities that come with it. I will give it some of my time, not because it makes me comfortable, but because I love my country and I respect what it took to make her great.

I’ve not slammed anyone who has built this nation. The fact that a majority of our forefathers were not Christians is a fact. I never said that they were not great men who did not do great things, in face I believe I said that I hold our forefathers in high esteem did I not?

And all your further arguments are mute because it can’t work anyway. You can’t expect unbelievers to live moral lives, why should they? What reasoning do you give them? Where do you stop with legal morality? As I said before do we work to make all forms of adultery illegal? Do we make the greatest sin of all, the sin of disbelief and the denying of God illegal? Do we impart a form of Christianity on all sins? which denomination decides which form that is? The reason why we need freedom is because that question can’t be answered and we are not fit to be attributers of which morals we should enforce and which ones we shouldn’t. It truly is an all or nothing game.

I agree with you that a society that has morals is desirable. But the question is do these laws and this fighting create a moral society? Or does it create a rebellious angry society? Would a more peaceful society not be more realizing of proper morals anyway? My teenage years being not far behind me, I find it to be a truth that people think it cool to rebel. I would make a bet that there will be a lot less homosexuals when its an excepted part of society, because it is not natural. Many people like it just because it upsets people.

And you are wrong about just sentiments and moral living being good for the gospel. It is good of its own for those who believe in God, but when unbelievers live under the pressures of morality around them the gospel is stifled. I hail from a small Lutheran town in Iowa. Morality is pressured by adults who where pressured by there parents who were pressured by there parents who had long given up on the true Gospel of Christ. Upfront one sees a moral kind town, with many nominal Christians. Yet when when eyes are turned immorality is rampant and when the Gospel is presented it is rejected on the grounds that I am a Christian because I am moral… should we encourage good morals in unbelievers? yes… but require it… all I see is a stifled gospel.

Visit a hot bed of open immorality, I had the opportunity to visit Tokyo on a missions trip. There is no God of the Bible there. Darkness prevails in the open depressing old religions of Confucianism and Bhudism, people hold on to ancestors and worship them. People go through life thinking that working hard will get them something. Work 90 hours a week. They make it to the top alone and tired and throw themselves in front of a train the next day. People are searching for the meaning of life. In the Animistic villages of Africa people are searching for something, throughout the world were people were allowed to find there own way to find that there is nothing in this world for them… the Gospel is catching fire. Even in America where rules have been more lax people have begun to realize there is nothing on this world for them, they are hungry for truth. If you want to live in a moral society… do the work of Christ. God never gave you the responsibility to uphold the morality of a democratic republic, he gave you the responsibility of living a moral life and to share the truth with the world. If we create disciples morality will take care of itself… What is happening in America today is purely due to a lost evangelical vision. We are more worried about our neighbors living moral lives then believing in Christ’s death and resurrection… and in consequence they don’t want our morals, and they won’t and as long as we continue on that path they will only deny our way of life even more.