Thoughts on Music not Being a Controversy When It Really is

I’m willing to stipulate that Joel might not have written exactly what he meant, and that he may have meant something along the lines of what Roger describes.

A few days ago, I listened to a sermon preached by Larry Carrier at Morningside Baptist Church in Greenville (it’s on Sermonaudio.com). He is music minister at that Church. I have not attended Morningside but the last I knew their music was conservative — in line with BJU (Mr. Carrier is/was an employee of BJU).

In his sermon, Mr. Carrier told the congregation that they were not responsible to the Lord for the music sung/played in the Church but that he and the other leadership were. He told them that they must trust their leadership. He told the congregation that if they asked him about a certain song that was sung/played that he would remind them of Hebrews 13:17

Roger had it right - the only thing I might add for sake of clarity is that the “removal” or threat of “church discipline” are for those who do not exhibit a sweet spirit but are intent on internally undermining the direction of music that the elders and congregation has already outlined. To be clear if a brother or sister really struggle with a song and the attitude is right - we’ll go the distance to listen biblically. If a believer who understands our music approach coming in to our membership, and after singing week in and week out with his brothers and sisters cannot sin because his conscience won’t let him - I’m not talking about dealing firmly with that kind of brother. It is the church member who consistently questions, consistently undermines who we are and where we are headed who is making a “show” of his or her “superiority.”

So that may not help you - or maybe it does. I think the rest of what I said should be clear.

Straight Ahead!

jt

[dlhanson]

He told them that they must trust their leadership. He told the congregation that if they asked him about a certain song that was sung/played that he would remind them of Hebrews 13:17

“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” And that would be the end of the discussion. (This is my recollection of the sermon — I don’t recall that he invited any other discussion.)

[Joel Tetreau]

If a believer who understands our music approach coming in to our membership, and after singing week in and week out with his brothers and sisters cannot sin because his conscience won’t let him - I’m not talking about dealing firmly with that kind of brother.

Joel

I hope you teach your people that when their consciences won’t let them sin, they should not violate their consciences.

Sorry, I enjoyed that typo too much.

[Chris Ames]

But how would someone in the pew, an otherwise faithful member of the church, force his belief on other people?

It can be passive (sitting and pouting), to actively talking against people. Maybe when you have a fellowship at your house with other people from church, you begin talking about how “evil” the ESV is and that if everyone was really right, they would use the KJV. There are many ways for this to get out of hand, and if you have been in church long enough you will have seen a few examples of it. Even to the point of getting some people to bad talk the church leadership in a more open forum.

TJ,

Can you imagine the category of “faux pas” my editor’s have had to live with? “Other worldly” no doubt! Well - if nothing else it adds to my humility - regardless. Watch out for the hurricanes!

Straight Ahead!

jt

So I am now a KJVO konspiracy kook, except with a Watts hymnal? I’m blushing in the warmth of your benevolence!

I think instead of responding in kind I’ll just go with my idea of tackling people.

C’mon, Chris, he’s just using that as a parallel example. He’s not saying anyone who holds to traditional music by conviction is also KJVO.

Do you seriously not know what it means to sow discord among the brethren?

And now for a bit of light-hearted fun, not directed at anybody …

I’m not feeling terribly creative at the moment, so I’ll use your words. After all, if you didn’t think they were fitting for the occasion, you wouldn’t use them.

C’mon, Greg, don’t you see that you tend to place things in parallel if you think that they are parallel?

Do you seriously think that discord among the brethren can only be sown from among the brethren?

I don’t understand your response, so I’ll try to be more specific in my point.

You posted this:

Joel,

You would discipline an otherwise faithful believer out of your church for not singing along with songs that he is convinced are either beneath the glory of God or contrary to his understanding of Christianity?

Hmm… Where have I heard that before?

…which, of course, was not was Joel Tetreau was saying at all.

In response, dgszweda posted:

I don’t think he states this at all. He is stating that if the believer is trying to sow discord or create a schism, this person would be dealt with. This in my view is the right biblical approach. This to me is no different than how you would handle an otherwise faithful believer who is sowing discord or schism over the KJV, or the family movement, or wearing hats……. I can’t speak for Joel, but I would assume that if someone doesn’t want to sing the song, that would be fine, just as it would be fine if someone only used their KJV at church, or if they chose to have their children sit with them instead of going to Sunday School, or the woman choose to wear hats. I believe the line that Joel is drawing is when that individual forces this belief on others,or tries to create problems over it.

Do you really not see the analogy he is making? In fact, I’m sure he would agree the analogy could also be used for someone at a church which uses only conservative music who sows discord among the brethren in his desire for contemporary music. I really don’t know how his post could be any clearer.

• Not singing along with contemporary music if you are convinced traditional music alone is God-honoring = fine. Trying to force this belief on others or openly and repeatedly arguing for this in spite of pastoral warnings = sowing discord among the brethren.
• Using the KJV in a non-KJVO church = fine. Trying to force this belief on others or openly and repeatedly arguing for this in spite of pastoral warnings = sowing discord among the brethren.
• Keeping your children with you rather than sending them to children’s church if you believe families should worship together = fine. Trying to force this belief on others or openly and repeatedly arguing for this in spite of pastoral warnings = sowing discord among the brethren.
• A woman covering her head in church even if this is not the teaching of this passage by pastoral leadership = fine. Trying to force this belief on others or openly and repeatedly arguing for this in spite of pastoral warnings = sowing discord among the brethren.
• Not singing along with traditional music if you are convinced contemporary music is also God-honoring = fine. Trying to force this belief on others or openly and repeatedly arguing for this in spite of pastoral warnings = sowing discord among the brethren.

Chris,

I will give you a different example. We, as the leadership of the church, decided to use a Fundamental camp that we had never used years ago. We were all in agreement, the only thing is it was a little more of a distance. Well, when it was announced, one man was in the back pouting. He didnt even have any children going, but he didn’t think we should go that distance. Well, then he proceeded to meet with many people in the church wondering why the leadership would do such a thing. He never even brought it up to me as the pastor. That is the attitude that we are talking about. No, we did not discipline him. But, he was the same man that we confronted later because he did something similar. We didn’t discipline him then, because he stormed out when confronted in a loving way. If someone acted like this man did with musical choices, then yes the should be warned. If they continue, they should be disciplined. Because, someone with a godly conscience, is not going to act the way I described above. Sowing discord is a wicked sin, that has to be dealt with.

I know of a church that was using new Sunday School material. Today this church is not using the same material because of several issues. During the “trial” period, each adult SS teacher was encouraged to use the SS material that had been approved by the elders of the church. The material in question came in three “versions” - First was a more academic version. Second was a partial academic and partial application oriented version, and finally, (we’ll call it) “the easy reader’s edition.” Each SS teacher was told that if they wanted to skip over, add to or change this or that about the material they were using that would be fine. Imagine the hurt when one adult SS teacher took it upon himself to publicly belittle the material that the elders had determined to use (even though the use was only temporary and frankly “on trial”). This teacher did this on more than one occasion. Not only did the SS teacher in question throw the material under the bus - but in essence he was throwing the leadership of the church under the bus because he didn’t agree with the choice in material and he used class time to explain how he would have done a better job in certainly writing if not choosing material. Instead of doing the right thing and using the material that had been given to him - changing the material to improve it as however he wished - he instead decided to “grand stand” in an attempt to show himself to be wiser than the pastoral leadership of the church. In the end he may have been right - but the honorable thing to do was to either honor the wishes of the leadership or to explain that because he was so opposed to the material in question, he would not be able to teach the class in good conscience. This would have been a God-honoring approach and one that would have aided, not undermined the health of the church. This stuff happens in church life all the time!

I know of other stories just like this where instead of a rough Sunday School teacher it was a rough Small Group Leader, Associate Pastor, or a disgruntled wife from a former church leader………What has been particularly disturbing is a recent trend where seminary graduates come into a congregation and stir up angst within the leadership and congregation because the poor pastor doesn’t have all the theological standards of the “young guys” that certainly know better than the poor sap who God and that congregation had placed into pastoral leadership.

Scripture’s admonition - “Stop It!” There is a way to respond to things you do not agree with - the private meetings after or before the official “meeting” is typically sinful and the wrong way to respond to those things which you disagree with.

Straight Ahead!

jt

I think Ames’ first question was a serious one. I think his responses were meant to be taken tongue-in-cheek.

I am in a church that is taking a long transition towards a more conservative bent. Will I sing some songs? No. Is the pastor comfortable with these songs? No, and he doesn’t always choose them. Will he sing them? Yes, for the sake of the unity of the brethren. But he and I are on the same page in working towards changing the affections of the church. But there is much work to be done. We recently changed our hymnal, and we are in the process of evaluating every piece in it for usefulness. Mr. Ames - come and join us. We’d love to have you.