Chris Thurman: Yes, evangelicals, it is foolish to support Trump

"...why is Brown talking about me given that my op-ed was about evangelicals who foolishly support Trump in spite of the fact that he is a deeply mentally and morally disturbed person? This is a common tactic employed by many Trump supporters — go after the accuser rather than the accused." - Christian Post

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Mark_Smith's picture

This guy straight up believes Trump is "crazy" (using the vernacular rather than technical definition). Not just that, he specifically says that Trump is "someone who is truly evil as I believe." Evil.

SMH

WallyMorris's picture

I am not a die-hard Trump supporter nor am I a "never-Trumper". Not only does the author criticize Trump, he also criticizes Vice-President Pence. So I wonder who he thinks should be President. If Trump and Pence are removed from office, then Speaker Pelosi becomes President, according to succession rules. He asked to name 1 positive character quality: Trump has publicly supported the pro-life position and taken steps to back that up. You can argue whether that is a political strategy or genuine conviction if you like. Trump also has one of the strongest political instincts of a modern President. He has lived in NYC politics for decades. He knows politics. That has served him well, whether or not you like his policies or character. Does the man have serious personal "issues"? Yes. But so did Nixon, Kennedy, FDR, and others. I find it amazing that, in my lifetime, we are now seeing a 3rd impeachment proceeding of a President. Incredible.

Wally Morris

Charity Baptist Church

Huntington, IN

amomentofcharity.blogspot.com

David R. Brumbelow's picture

President Trump’s accomplishments with which I generally agree: 

Ending USA funding of abortion in other countries, and supporting the pro-life cause. 

An excellent Vice-President, Mike Pence. 

Lowering taxes

Very strong economy, helping everyone, including minorities like Blacks and Hispanics. 

Strong Stock Market. 

Business friendly, which results in more jobs, and greatly helps retirement and investment plans. 

More military spending. 

Encouraging other NATO countries to pay their fair share in military defense. 

Largely defeating ISIS in Iraq and Syria. 

Ending numerous excess regulations. 

Actually saying and writing the word Christmas. 

Christian friendly, some good Christian advisors. 

Nominating conservative Supreme Court justice, and numerous other conservative judges. 

Nominating conservative judges even in liberal areas.  Previous conservative presidents did not do so. 

Moving US embassy to Israel’s capital of Jerusalem, and supporting Israel. 

Recognizing Golan Heights as part of Israel. 

Opposing the Iran deal, and supporting freedom protestors in Iran. 

Supporting freedom protesters in Hong Kong. 

Cuts to United Nations. 

Opposing Paris accord on Global Warming. 

Getting tough, yet communicating, with North Korea. 

Trump administration arguing in Supreme Court in favor of a Christian baker’s right to not design a wedding cake for same-sex wedding. 

Tough trade talks with China, Canada, Mexico, etc.  Insisting America be treated fairly in trade. 

More emphasis on religious liberty. 

As Cal Thomas says, “Character matters, but so do results.”

David R. Brumbelow

Mike Harding's picture

David,  thanks for your list.  I agree with it.  Let me add that the Trump Administration has greatly helped our Christian Universities in a concrete fashion.  Several years ago we received a letter from the Department of Education, headed up by Trump appointee, Betsy Devos, freeing us up from all the Executive Orders issued by President Obama regarding the LGBTQ regulations with reference to our facilities and student life.  I saw the letter firsthand.  It was such a relief.  I know if the executive branch changes parties, all those regulations and more will be reinstated via Executive Order.  The Trump administration strongly supports the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the Hyde Amendment preventing Federal Funding of Abortion.  All that changes under a socialist-democrat administration, no matter who the nominee will be.  Trump is clearly an unregenerate man who does not know the Lord.  He also has several glaring character flaws, none of which I support.  His policies, however, have been very good for the most part and he has great respect for religious freedom.  For that I am thankful.

Pastor Mike Harding

Bert Perry's picture

....it's worth noting that it is a serious, serious breach of professional ethics for anyone to diagnose someone with mental illness without meeting with them.  So there is a bitter irony when people use these appraisals without an understanding of what they truly mean; merely that those making them have lost their ordinary sense of professional ethics.

And really, I'd like to build on what Wally says about succeeding in New York City; it is not just the politicians Trump had to deal with.  Until Rudy Giuliani started putting their leaders in prison, Trump most likely had to deal with the Mob from time to time.  So is Trump mentally ill, or is he crazy like a fox?

That was, really, my biggest fear in pulling the lever for Trump in 2016; the question of how he dealt with the Mob.  Did he out-fox them, or did he collaborate with them?  What would that mean for our system of government?

And given this fear, why not just capitulate to Hilliary?  Simple; I suspected Trump might sell people out, but I knew Hilliary would.  And regarding the results we see (thanks, David), I'm having trouble reconciling those results with "Trump is in cahoots with the Mob or the liberals."  If he wants to do horrible things this way, he's doing a really bad job of it.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

Paul Henebury's picture

Trump may not be everyone's cup of tea, but he has accomplished a lot under very trying circumstances.  If the Left get in they're coming after Christians and conservative causes.  Trump is the President.  I don't judge him on his Christianity.  I judge him on what he has done.  It's impressive enough.

I can add to David's list:

Getting the US out of the ridiculous Paris Agreement

Securing the release of many prisoners

Some Christians act like they will not be satisfied until Jesus is ruling.  But every President has problems, but some of them mask those problems behind cultured politi-speak.  I believe Trump is holding off some very powerful people who hate Christianity and want to alter society big time.  If the Dems get in many believers will be whining about losing on issues that Trump is now defending.  

 

Dr. Paul Henebury

I am Founder of Telos Ministries, and Senior Pastor at Agape Bible Church in N. Ca.

Joel Shaffer's picture

I did find it interesting that not a single person who wrote on this thread took up Trueman's challenge to come up with one positive character trait Trump possesses (defined by Scripture according to the Beatitudes, Fruit of the Spirit, and 10 commandments). By the way, there are some of David's list that I agree with (especially with Pro-life and religious liberty issues), along with the First Step act but a few I find really odd, such as  "Actually saying and writing the word Christmas" since Obama said and wrote it multiple times during his time as President. 

Paul Henebury's picture

The traits that Joel (and Trueman) write about are Christian ones.  Trump is not (I believe) a Christian so he doesn't possess any.  Neither did Obama, nor Hillary.  The point is moot.

But Trump has not gone weak at the knees at the shenanigans of the left.  Trueman has written about the tiring machinations he witnessed at Westminster and in "Big Eva", but then he attacks Trump because he doesn't have the polish of his former masters and colleagues.    

Dr. Paul Henebury

I am Founder of Telos Ministries, and Senior Pastor at Agape Bible Church in N. Ca.

David R. Brumbelow's picture

“I'm not a drinker, I can honestly say I've never had a beer in my life.  It’s one of my only good traits.”  -President Donald J. Trump

David R. Brumbelow

David R. Brumbelow's picture

Positive Traits

President Trump does not have the polish and tactfulness of a politician, or a pastor that that matter.  That can be viewed as a negative, or in some situations a positive. 

He can, and is willing to, stand up against great odds, great opposition.  Something few others could withstand. 

He appears to have considerable respect for evangelical Christianity and religious liberty. 

He has a number of Christian advisors. 

He is a good negotiator / deal-maker. 

He has admitted to living an immoral life in the past, but as far as I know, he is not doing so today.  Kind of like some of our church members. 

He is tough, crude, and rough around the edges.  He is a hard driving businessman.  Perhaps that is what America needs for such a time as this. 

There are times Trump is arrogant, times when he is self-depreciating and very gracious. 

Trump has shown mercy to those in prison. 

All the positive Trump accomplishments mentioned in comments above, could be considered positive traits.  When you do well, that is a positive trait. 

And remember, like George W. Bush, Donald Trump does not drink  Smile .  

David R. Brumbelow

Larry's picture

Moderator

Here are the conclusions:

Trump is a malignant narcissist, and, consequently, an evil person. He is not different in degree as many evangelicals seem to think, he is different in kind.

This lacks a comparison. Different than what? He is certainly different kind than some things and different in degree than others. It is easy to make this sort of statement absent some sort of standard. But it's foolish and silly to make this statement absent some sort of standard.

*As an evil person, Trump is extremely dangerous and poses a grave threat to our democracy and the world at large.

I don't think this makes a lot of sense, at least by comparison to modern politics. I think the grave threat to our democracy (actually republic) is the idea that an opposing political party can summon the resources of the federal government to overthrow a duly elected president. At worst, Trump will be gone in five years. The damage being done is going to last far longer.

*Trump’s mental and moral pathology are only going to worsen over time, causing even more damage to everything he touches.

This is clearly not true. There are thing he is touching that are actually good, and the list of good things (which Trueman acknowledges) is evidence that Trueman is wrong.

*Trump is unwilling to acknowledge that he has any serious flaws (he won’t even admit to having minor ones) and is militantly unrepentant before a Holy God.

Not sure this is true. But irrelevant in any case.

*Evangelicals who support Trump (defined in my op-ed as those who “continue to hold Trump up as a great leader, say he is God’s chosen one for the presidency, applaud his appalling words and actions, ignore his glaring moral defects, and enable his dangerous presidency to continue by giving him their time, talents, and treasure”) are being foolish and being played for fools by Trump and his sycophants.

Probably, but my guess is that this number of evangelicals is pretty small. Remember (to state it again), most evangelicals voted against Trump.

Larry's picture

Moderator

I did find it interesting that not a single person who wrote on this thread took up Trueman's challenge to come up with one positive character trait Trump possesses 

I don't find that interesting at all.I think the reason is obvious. My guess is that most people here don't find positive character traits in Trump. Again, this is driven by a failure to understand what is going on with Trump. 

If there is a positive trait, I would suggest his stubbornness, his unwillingness to give in to pressure. That is sometimes good and sometimes bad. But when it's good, it's really good. It is not a spiritual trait per se (which I take to be more narrow than "positive"). 

Mark_Smith's picture

Joel Shaffer wrote:

I did find it interesting that not a single person who wrote on this thread took up Trueman's challenge to come up with one positive character trait Trump possesses (defined by Scripture according to the Beatitudes, Fruit of the Spirit, and 10 commandments). By the way, there are some of David's list that I agree with (especially with Pro-life and religious liberty issues), along with the First Step act but a few I find really odd, such as  "Actually saying and writing the word Christmas" since Obama said and wrote it multiple times during his time as President. 

I don't have one positive character trait as listed in the Beatitudes. I constantly fail all the fruit of the Spirit. And I break a good number of the 10 commandments.

KD Merrill's picture

Thurman mentioned Michael Brown in his screed.

Links to Brown's responses are here and here.