John Piper to move to Knoxville area while he works on his writing

John Piper will still be warning sinners, just not as Bethlehem Baptist pastor

During Piper’s tenure, Bethlehem grew from a one-campus congregation of nearly 300 members to a church with three Twin Cities locations, a seminary and close to 5,000 attendees.

All-Church Annual Meeting

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Huw's picture

Anyone that says things like this will always be popular, but never with the holy.

 

There is a real condition that has to be met for justification - namely faith in Jesus Christ. And there are real conditions that have to be met for damnation, namely, hardness and unbelief. There is a real choice that we make which unites us with Christ so that we are clothed with his righteousness and have eternal life. And there is real choice that we make - in Adam and in ourselves - which is resistant to the truth and deserving of condemnation. ("The Fame of His Name and the Freedom of Mercy")

Chip Van Emmerik's picture

Huw,

I am hoping your post was accidentally posted to this thread when you really meant for it to be part of a different thread, because I find it incomprehensible that you could exalt Chuck Phelps as the servant of the Almighty while declaring John Piper unpopular with the holy (not sure if that is the holy ones or the Holy One, but either way).

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Huw's picture

I did not and had no intention of ''exalting'' Fred Phelps. I pointed out that certain of his views cannot be dismissed. I did say 'all creatures'' including all men are servants of the Almighty and that fact is undeniable. As for Chuck Phelps I'm almost positive I never mentioned him. 

 

''A 2010 survey of U.S. pastors ranked Piper among the 10 most influential living preachers -- alongside Billy Graham, Rick Warren and Max Lucado'' adding Piper to this list as ''living'' is an oxymoron. They are all preachers of the sovereignty of man in salvation, which makes them arminian, which makes them dead.

 

PS Please don't insinuate I'm a Calvanist, because I'm not. 

 

''holy'' as in the meaning of the word, separate, separated by the Almighty unto his service. It is a term used in scripture; hagios that or they that have been hallowed. Some versions interchange saints and holy. I sometimes use the term holy as it might make people think and search as to what I mean. On the other hand I have others that just jump to the wrong conclusion and in ignorance jump down my throat. 

Chip Van Emmerik's picture

Huw wrote:

I did not and had no intention of ''exalting'' Fred Phelps. I pointed out that certain of his views cannot be dismissed. I did say 'all creatures'' including all men are servants of the Almighty and that fact is undeniable. As for Chuck Phelps I'm almost positive I never mentioned him.

Thank you for taking the time to try to clarify. I don't completely understand this first paragraph. You realize that Phelps is the leader of the Westborough Baptist Church, right? You cite here your supportive stance toward Westborough mentioned in another thread. I am not sure what you mean when you say you don't think you ever mentioned him.

Why is it that my voice always seems to be loudest when I am saying the dumbest things?

Huw's picture

I know who FRED is, but you mentioned someone called Chuck. Try reading what you posted and then you might understand what I posted.

 

''because I find it incomprehensible that you could exalt Chuck Phelps'' your words post 3.

 

PS This topic is not on Phelps so lets drop it here.

Wayne Wilson's picture

They are all preachers of the sovereignty of man in salvation, which makes them arminian, which makes them dead.

PS Please don't insinuate I'm a Calvanist, because I'm not.

Well, somebody has to ask, so it might as well be me.  So, how is John Piper an Arminian?  I know you're not a Calvinist, Huw, but Piper is.  Doesn't calling him an Arminian just confuse labels that are useful in theological discussions?

Huw's picture

Piper writes and preaches that salvation has conditions attached and that the conditions are what man must do. 

 

I've already given one example here's a couple more.

 

''When the Old Testament says that covenant-keeping is the condition for receiving God's lovingkindness, that's what it meant''. (Future Grace)

'Not everybody is saved from God's wrath just because Christ died for sinners. There is a condition we must meet in order to be saved. I want to try to show that the condition, summed up here as repentance and faith, is conversion and that conversion is nothing less than the creation of a Christian Hedonist. (Desiring God)

''Unconditional election does not mean that our final salvation or condemnation is unconditional. ("The Fame of His Name and the Freedom of Mercy"

 

The doctrine of grace needs to be experienced to be understood and it's evident that Piper is not in that number. He's read about it, studied it in some detail, but he gets confused in regard to the sovereign power exercised in the salvation of a sinner and the endurance of a saint. The reason for this is simple. To be saved he did something and to endure he's doing something else. I don't know what that something was or indeed is but it was a condition of his salvation and he tries to place the same condition on others.

I agree about the labels, but I see them as flags and the fact someone flies a flag allows us to discover who or what they are fighting for. The fact that someone flies the flag of Calvinism means nothing. Many do are are found to be wolves in sheeps clothing. Through their teaching they vex the souls of the children and sometimes the young men. 

 

Blessings, H.

Wayne Wilson's picture

You know for certain that John Piper is not saved?

Huw's picture

I could not and would not call him brother on the basis of what he teaches. I find the doctrine of the sovereignty of man in salvation to be obscene. I have seen the results of this doctrine and I have witnessed the end of the doctrine. 

 

In case I'm accused of being frightened to answer your question, the answer is no he is not saved.

 

 

 

 

 

Donn R Arms's picture

Where are the SI moderators today?

Donn R Arms

Wayne Wilson's picture

Thanks for your honesty in condemning a brother to the flames. 

Did you read the works of Piper where you got the above sentences, or find them somewhere?

Please tell me what is wrong with this statement: 

"There was only one hope for me --- that the infinite wisdom of God might make way for the love of God to satisfy the wrath of God so that I might become a son of God. This is exactly what happened, and I will sing of it forever."

or this one:

"If life from the dead is given to you by grace, and freedom from Satan is given to you by grace, and the hope of eternal kindness is given to you by grace, then there is only one possible way to receive these things—through FAITH."

Is faith the condition you regard as "the sovereignty of man"?

Huw's picture

With the greatest respect I have not condemned him to flames. That is a predetermined choice of the Almighty if He so pleases. What I have done is answered your question and if you had any grace you would not have asked the question.

Do I condemn his teaching? yes

Do I know that this teaching is that of a blind guide ? yes

 

Do I know that he will never be saved? no, of course not. 

 

We are told not to believe every spirit, but to test them (teaching). Messiah complimented the eclessia at Ephesus for testing the apostles that came and found them to be liars. Simon Magus was found to be false. 

 

I do nothing that is not expected of me and do so diligently. 

Wayne Wilson's picture

Well, Huw, you are quite the fellow!

Now, why, in your grace-filled wisdom, did you not answer my questions?

One more try:

1)Have you read the complete works from which you derived your Piper quotes?

And,

2) What do you think of his other quotes I referenced? Do you have problems with them as they are?

3) Is faith the condition you regard as "the sovereignty of man"?
 

 

Greg Long's picture

Huw is another one of a long-line of SI posters who, after a series of unbiblical and, at times, nonsensical postings, have been asked either publicly or privately about his church attendance/membership and has revealed that he has no church connection. It's happened too many times for me to consider it coincidental.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

Huw's picture

How can it be so if Messiah adds to the eclessia daily such as should be saved?  are you suggesting he fails to do this when He saves? Or do see the eclessia as a building, built with the hands of men, ruled by men and for the glory of man?

When I was saved, at home and on my own, the effects of my salvation were seen and felt by all that knew me. The change was so great that my own father didn't recognize me. People who knew me were approaching me to find out what had happened. The people in the club I frequented took out a book, of bets, as to how long it would last. All bets are now off.  And finally a man who never attended school after the age of 13 years can now sit here and type this message. 

I did not seek nor ask for salvation. If I had been offered salvation I would have answered, tomorrow maybe, but not today. I had no part in anything with regard my justification, conversion, repentance or new birth, but I say say as Job did, I know my redeemer lives. amen.

 

And your testimony is....? 

Greg Long's picture

Huw, I'm not questioning your salvation. I am questioning your obedience to the clear commands of Scripture to gather regularly with other believers who have organized themselves in a NT church where the Word is preached, the ordinances are observed, and NT officers oversee and serve.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

JobK's picture

Huw wrote:

I could not and would not call him brother on the basis of what he teaches. I find the doctrine of the sovereignty of man in salvation to be obscene. I have seen the results of this doctrine and I have witnessed the end of the doctrine. 

In case I'm accused of being frightened to answer your question, the answer is no he is not saved.

So you are saying that Piper teaches Lordship salvation? Or is it something else that you object to?

 

Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura
http://healtheland.wordpress.com

Huw's picture

 

 

1)Have you read the complete works from which you derived your Piper quotes? =====`

No. About 6 or 7 years ago a friend of mine attended a rally in Ireland where piper was speaking. She, who is not converted, came back raving about him I had to inform her he was a false teacher. I did some research to confirm to her what and why I'd said that. I was upset by some of his teachings and wrote to him. I received a reply from someone saying he didn't want to reply to me.

I have delved into some of his teachings since then and did keep notes as I always do. I changed from Windows to iMac last year and the notes went in the fire with my laptop. When I need to confirm anything I look it up on line as I'm sure most people do. My mind was made up about Pipers teaching when I saw a tape of him preaching about 11 years ago. When my friend brought him back under my radar I was prompted to confirm my suspicions about him.  What I gather from the net has no effect other than to confirm that which I am already aware of.

 

2) What do you think of his other quotes I referenced? Do you have problems with them as they are?

I have read more of his quotes than I care to remember and going over more of them is not on my agenda. If he is ever converted I shall relish reading the effects of that salvation. 

 

 

3) Is faith the condition you regard as "the sovereignty of man"?``====depends on what you understand in regard to faith and from where you believe 'faith' comes from. Where you place by, of or through in relation to 'faith'.

 

 

Huw's picture

I sat under ''not neglecting to meet together'',  for some time after my salvation. Once I heard the words ''come out from them'', I was obedient to that call. 

 

Please don't assume to know what the Almighty is working in my life as you haven't got a clue. 

 

And your testimony? 

Huw's picture

So let me get this right. You have a problem with my judging a teaching and by default the person behind the teaching, but see nothing wrong in judging me? 

 

Charming.

Wayne Wilson's picture

     I have met a few people like Huw over the years.  They had a dramatic experience they consider REAL conversion, and measure everyone else by their experience.   Sadly, they cannot be reasoned with and dislike learning from others,  They do not respect the wisdom or opinions of others who have known the Lord longer and are more knowledgeable of the Word and how to handle it.  No one compares with them. 

     But...they love to make their voice heard. The Internet makes that easy.  Huw's posts are a kind of long tease so we will engage with him, and he can share that REAL experience he had that others lack.  Engagement of any kind validates in his mind that supreme measure of grace he was given.  That experience also allows him to have such mastery over the Bible that none can challenge him or bring him more enlightenment than he has received from the Almighty.

    The BIG QUESTION is: how should SharperIron handle folks like this?  That's a discussion worth having.   

Huw's picture

I feel the need to qualify my heeding the call to come out from amongst them.

I had to be dragged kicking and screaming out of darkness into the light. There was no possible chance of my being, in anyway, obedient.

My ‘coming out from amongst them’ was similar. I had listened for over two years to people who had been going to church all their lives. I had been obedient to all they told me to do and yet they knew as well as I did that there was something different going on in me, than was going on in them.
I felt the calling to come out, but wouldn’t heed the call because of the teaching you mentioned. Week after week, after week we heard the same thing. If you leave us and go somewhere else you’ll be a ‘’spiritual gypsy’’. I was blessed because I went to Bible College (Don’t ask, please don’t ask.) and was doing the rounds of the denominations. I was a popular speaker because of my experience, which most people called a road to Damascus experience.
I used to attend every meeting that I could get to. Every day for a year I walked 4 miles to college and 4 miles home. I did so with a joy in my heart that men would die for. I relished and loved every moment on my way there. Every evening I wept for the 4 miles at the things I been hearing. My tears were mixed with prayer and the college closed down shortly after.

There came a point in time about two and a half years into my walk when I was listening to a sermon. The sermon was about acceptance and how it was the responsibility of each and everyone of the congregation to accept whomsoever came through the door. He went on and on and on, but as he did I realized he was a liar and wouldn’t be prepared to practice what he was preaching.
When the sermon ended I approached him and said, ‘’I’d like to become a member of this church’’ and he said I wasn’t wanted there.

This was all the prompting I needed. A week later at 10:30am (I kid you not) I was cycling a 40-mile path and at precisely that time, which is the time services start in Wales. I began to hear or should I say feel and experience scripture. This then became a daily occurrence and I spend my time hearing, not in the physical sense, sermons, doctrine or whatever you choose to call it.
The one thing that people found odd about me when I went to their meetings is the fact I would recall sermons from weeks or months before. I can now recall sermons I heard 12 years ago.

When I stopped listening to the doctrines of men I was taken to the verses of Peter to make sure your election and calling.
I was asked in my inner self if what I was exercising (faith) was the same as that which Noah, Abraham and the prophets had lived by. Was it the real thing?  Was the same principle by which Paul was saved and lived by?
I spent 3 years questioning my thoughts, words and deeds and asking is this faith, belief or trust and what the relationship was between each of the words.
At the end of three years I received my answers and have lived by that pure, unmistakable and steadfast principle through which we are saved and live by.

The way out from them was prepared for me from the foundation of the world and if that’s a delusion then I’m contented in it.

 

Huw's picture

Bless you.

alex o.'s picture

Wayne Wilson wrote:

     I have met a few people like Huw over the years.  They had a dramatic experience they consider REAL conversion, and measure everyone else by their experience.   Sadly, they cannot be reasoned with and dislike learning from others,  They do not respect the wisdom or opinions of others who have known the Lord longer and are more knowledgeable of the Word and how to handle it.  No one compares with them. 

     But...they love to make their voice heard. The Internet makes that easy.  Huw's posts are a kind of long tease so we will engage with him, and he can share that REAL experience he had that others lack.  Engagement of any kind validates in his mind that supreme measure of grace he was given.  That experience also allows him to have such mastery over the Bible that none can challenge him or bring him more enlightenment than he has received from the Almighty.

    The BIG QUESTION is: how should SharperIron handle folks like this?  That's a discussion worth having.   

 

your first paragraph, I think, nails it because these things are apparent. the second paragraph is more speculative obviously.

the best way to deal with folks like this is to personally ignore/not respond instead of trying to police individuals board-wide. not responding is an act of wisdom sometimes.

"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord.  B.B. Warfield

http://beliefspeak2.net

Paul Henebury's picture

Huw,

As many Calvinists (and Calvin himself) have taught that God gives people a faith which does not endure to salvation, and there are many examples of men who thought they were saved but defected - how do you know that you are one of the elect?

 

Regards,

 

Paul H.

Dr. Paul Henebury

I am Founder of Telos Ministries, and Senior Pastor at Agape Bible Church in N. Ca.

alex o.'s picture

in some ways I could go along with John Piper claim of 7-point Calvinism. at least I can see his rationale.

I attended Bethlehem occasionally in '82-83 and met many great folks. Piper's ministry however did not click for me at the time and I chose another church ultimately.

I thoroughly enjoy many things he has written and have benefited from his writing ministry.

"Our faith itself... is not our saviour. We have but one Saviour; and that one Saviour is Jesus Christ our Lord.  B.B. Warfield

http://beliefspeak2.net

Wayne Wilson's picture

the best way to deal with folks like this is to personally ignore/not respond instead of trying to police individuals board-wide. not responding is an act of wisdom sometimes.

I agree, Alex, that the best response at some point is to turn away.  It's just that it takes a long time for everyone to come around to that conclusion.  And I admit, the tease part of people like Huw bothers me because it seems to be a cruel use of other's time.  Obviously, even in this post, Donn and Greg were trying to flag me (us), but I took the bait.  I actually wanted to hear Huw's reply to my doctrinal questions, in part, because I think there's something of a doctrinal standard to be posting on SI.   I don't think he adheres to it, but that's not my call. 

If Huw dominates many discussions as he has here, it makes the whole board tiresome.  Some folks just shouldn't be allowed to post...especially folks who have no real interest in the church. 

BTW, I like Piper, too, especially his biographies of saints in the past, but he can be a little odd at times.  I read his book and heard him speak in person on Future Grace, but I still don't get what he is driving at with that one.  It may be my thick skull, but I think he sometimes runs with fresh insights that don't amount to much!   

Huw's picture

There is a matter that Peter brings up and that is to make sure your election and calling. I've done that and have the blessedness of the assurance of trust. This was by grace and through trust and not by any works of my own.

There are many things taught in the denominations that lead people away from fulfilling this vital task and in missing this people begin to wander from doctrine to doctrine and from church to church. They think they are saved, but are never sure.

The effects of trust as described in Hebrews is best translated as, ''now trust is the substance of our hoping, the proof of those not seen''.

 

Substance in this verse is an absolute dream of a word. It gives the underpinning strength or fills and gives substance to the blessed hopes we have. It is not empty or carnal hope. The word evidence could mean either true or false, because until proven evidence is not accepted. Proof on the other had is not questionable. 

 

I must admit that the words of James ''deem it all cheer when you fall into divers testings'' was a very, very difficult verse for me, because when I was tested it was far from cheerful and I would often ask people what is this guy talking about?

Then realization was given me that when James had written this he had done so as a man looking back at what had happened and felt the effects it had upon him. ''Knowing that the proofing of your trust worketh endurance'' and so on...Endurance in replace of patience makes a lot more sense than patience. This is a study I'm continuing.

When I began to feel the same way as James and the effects he felt were mine also. I realized others had walked this path and left way marks. 

 

Every blessing, H.

Paul Henebury's picture

Quote:
There is a matter that Peter brings up and that is to make sure your election and calling. I've done that and have the blessedness of the assurance of trust. This was by grace and through trust and not by any works of my own.

 

All you've answered here is in effect, "I know I've done that so I'm one of the elect."

 

But I asked you how you know you are one of the elect?  You cannot make your calling and election sure if you are not called and not elect.  Surely you are not relying on your feelings in this matter?  How do you know you are not one of those given a false faith (trust)?  How do you know Christ died for you?

 

 

Dr. Paul Henebury

I am Founder of Telos Ministries, and Senior Pastor at Agape Bible Church in N. Ca.

Huw's picture

On the day of His coming I'll be known of Him, because I am known by Him.

If as you think I'm wrong or mistaken then I'll still be up on the deal, because since 17th July 1999 at 10:30am my life has been so enjoyable you cannot imagine. I have been prepared to give a reason for the hope I have, but you don't seem to recognize anything I say. I know my trust is true and I know this for certain;

 

Wherever I am, whatever I think, say or do. I am, at every moment, at the center of the will of the Eternal Almighty for my life.

 

Whether you accept that or not is of no consequence to me, but it might have eternal consequences for you. 

 

When I used to visit the denominations I'd often get women coming up to me a waging a finger saying, 'it's not the way you start, it's the way you finish that counts''. Which is a load of nonsense, because He that has started or begun a good work in you, will see it through to completion. 

 

I was standing washing dishes 20 minutes ago in the exact same spot as I was standing when heaven came down and glory filled my soul. I know the work was begun and I trust He is able to complete that work. 

 

Halalu Yah.

 

 

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