Would war against ISIS be just?

http://www.bpnews.net/43278/isis-terror-threat-gives-impetus-to-just-wa…

Just war is a myth. We have allowed basic definitions of just and good to be manipulated into warmongering and madness.

When definitions have been manipulated, the realities they represent are no longer the topic. So if someone argues that dogs have long trunks and weigh thousands of pounds and therefore make poor pets, we really are not talking about dogs anymore.

In the case of just war, there is a theological history of the concept. If it has been claimed but distorted beyond recognition, this has no bearing on whether the original idea is sound.

But really, it’s even simpler than that. Unless we’re prepared to claim that war is absolutely never justified under any circumstances, all alternatives to that are some kind of “just war” position.

[James K]

Just war is a myth. We have allowed basic definitions of just and good to be manipulated into warmongering and madness.

?s for James K

• Are you a Christian pacifist?
• Do you believe in self-defense?

[Aaron] But really, it’s even simpler than that. Unless we’re prepared to claim that war is absolutely never justified under any circumstances, all alternatives to that are some kind of “just war” position.

I was wrong. Actually, there are a minimum of three basic categories:

1. all war is wrong, period
2. some war is justified according to principles
3. ignoring morality entirely: i.e., leaders go to war simply if they can and want to

​Someone might suggest “4. leaders pretend to be acting on principle but really just can go to war and want to”… but this is really #3 in disguise.

It is a product of sin and Satan, born in the pit of Hell, and foisted upon mankind in all its horrors since time immemorial. Regardless of the cause or the action that triggered the war there is no such thing as a good war—the death and destruction, the raw utilization of power, etc., steal something from the soul of even the most dedicated follower of Jesus Christ. That is just the way it is.

However, war will be around until Christ returns and establishes His kingdom of absolute peace. Scripture makes it clear that, though war is an intrinsic evil it is also a (seemingly) necessary evil. There is a need in any society for a warrior class that will self-sacrifice for “just” causes. Ridding the world of Hitler’s, Pol Pot’s, Saddam Hussein’s, etc., can very much be considered “just” causes.

War is evil because Satan is evil and it is Satan’s idea. It will be put to rest when Satan is put to rest (a time I am greatly looking forward to). In the meantime, as with other evils, we will have to endure and occupy as those conformed to the image of Christ in a fallen world occupied by God-haters who “love death.”

Avoid war if you can. Fight smart and win if you can’t. Grieve for those who perish as those made in the image of God, but when the time comes show “no pity upon them”, i.e., the evil ones (Dt. 7:16).

I think everyone agrees that war is an evil in the sense that in a sinless world, it would not exist, always has devastating results (along with whatever good results may have been the objective), and always includes some human beings doing detestable things (quite often contrary to orders). So in that sense, it’s an evil like ebola is an evil.

But this is really not the question. The issue is the morality or immorality of making the choice to go to war under whatever conditions. To put it more concretely, is it ever right for a leader of a nation to declare war and call on citizens to engage in warfare? If so, what principles do we use to evaluate the right/wrongness of the choice.

So, in short, is it always an evil act to decide to go to war?

The distinction is important because in a society like ours, the public conversation and convictions of “the people” are influential in the policy choices leaders make.

When a citizen goes on a rampage, like the D.C. sniper several years ago now, society rightly ‘goes to war’ against that citizen to stop that citizen from killing more people. It would be absurd to suggest that because all war is evil, we must therefore avoid all war, and so we just let the D.C. sniper continue until he runs out of funds to buy ammo or dies of old age. There are all sorts of sizes and scales to wars, and some, if not many are no doubt are wrongly based, or partially wrongly based. But God did ordain human government as a check on sin, and part of this is to bring justice to the lawless.

What Darrell says, and I don’t know that Augustine was that far from the Scriptures in his just war theory. It really derives from the parable of counting the cost Jesus makes, as well as Romans 13. The question with ISIS is whether we can destroy or contain them with an investment that’s not bigger than the cost of leaving them alone.

And speaking of the atrocities they’ve just committed, it would do my heart good to see one of their little stunts “adversely interrupted” by the Marines. .50 Browning right through the head of the guy right as he lifts the knife and starts talking…..

Romans 13:1-4 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.

I am not sure that it would theologically correct to say that war is evil based on these verses. It would appear to me that war - the judgment of God upon bad conduct carried out by God’s ordained bodies. Now the question would be, who gets to decide who has bad conduct and who is responsible for carrying out that judgment on the world stage.

It seems like saying “Just war is a myth” has some implications for our doctrine of God. I had a class once with a person who said they couldn’t believe in a God that would command the killing of the Canaanites.

[Jim]

James K wrote:

Just war is a myth. We have allowed basic definitions of just and good to be manipulated into warmongering and madness.

?s for James K

• Are you a Christian pacifist?
• Do you believe in self-defense?

1. Not a chance

2. Yes

[Larry]

It seems like saying “Just war is a myth” has some implications for our doctrine of God. I had a class once with a person who said they couldn’t believe in a God that would command the killing of the Canaanites.

Sigh. Apparently rejecting augustinian nonsense is now on par with questioning the biblical revelation of God. I need a nap.

[Darrell Post]

When a citizen goes on a rampage, like the D.C. sniper several years ago now, society rightly ‘goes to war’ against that citizen to stop that citizen from killing more people. It would be absurd to suggest that because all war is evil, we must therefore avoid all war, and so we just let the D.C. sniper continue until he runs out of funds to buy ammo or dies of old age. There are all sorts of sizes and scales to wars, and some, if not many are no doubt are wrongly based, or partially wrongly based. But God did ordain human government as a check on sin, and part of this is to bring justice to the lawless.

The NT makes provision for both self defense and a government protecting the innocent while punishing the guilty.

Warmongering is a sin specifically named in the NT.

[Lee]

It is a product of sin and Satan, born in the pit of Hell, and foisted upon mankind in all its horrors since time immemorial. Regardless of the cause or the action that triggered the war there is no such thing as a good war—the death and destruction, the raw utilization of power, etc., steal something from the soul of even the most dedicated follower of Jesus Christ. That is just the way it is.

However, war will be around until Christ returns and establishes His kingdom of absolute peace. Scripture makes it clear that, though war is an intrinsic evil it is also a (seemingly) necessary evil. There is a need in any society for a warrior class that will self-sacrifice for “just” causes. Ridding the world of Hitler’s, Pol Pot’s, Saddam Hussein’s, etc., can very much be considered “just” causes.

War is evil because Satan is evil and it is Satan’s idea. It will be put to rest when Satan is put to rest (a time I am greatly looking forward to). In the meantime, as with other evils, we will have to endure and occupy as those conformed to the image of Christ in a fallen world occupied by God-haters who “love death.”

Avoid war if you can. Fight smart and win if you can’t. Grieve for those who perish as those made in the image of God, but when the time comes show “no pity upon them”, i.e., the evil ones (Dt. 7:16).

I agree with the majority of this, but do not ever call our war efforts just.

God has in the past ordered war to be carried out by Israel. God has called on other nations to punish Israel and then punished those nations for what they did.

Theory is fun, but let’s not ignore the NT: James 1:20 - for man’s anger does not accomplish God’s righteousness.