David Cloud: "One of the Devil's most effective Trojan horses is music"

Surreal.

Hello USAToday?

The 90’s called. They’d like their “hot topics” back.

Never minding personal views of David Cloud, does he have a point? I believe so.

It is an easy trap to worship music more than God no matter where you find yourself on the spectrum of church music preferences. I have seen instances of this in both progressive and traditional churches, and I suspect most of you have as well.

Dan… it’s one of those topics that has gotten cold but keeps getting reheated.

In a way, that’s good though. We’re talking about how God is worshiped. Though much of the “heat” tends to be unhelpful, how bad would it be if nobody cared enough about worship to get bothered about the proper way to do it?

The problem with David Cloud is that a church can have a conservative approach to music and still be highly criticized by him. He even breeds division in such churches. Such division, in my mind, is just as worldly, sometimes even more wordly, than a church that has no music standard.

By the way - here is how to have the right music in your church - Col 3!

Verses 1-4 - Set your affections on things above - not on things on the earth.
Verses 5- 11 - Stop immoral behaviors and behaviors of ill-will toward others.
Verses 12-15 - Love one another like Christ wants you to love one another - this includes bearing with one another.

If we do these things, we will have hearts that are right with God and right with one another. Even in that state, we will not be in complete agreement on everything but it is in this state that we can worship together by teaching and admonishing one another in Psalms and Hymns and Spiritual Songs.

I feel sorry for churches that have no standard. I also feel sorry for a believer who has a conniption and is willing to have a church split over someone sings a song they don’t like.

He even breeds division in such churches

That is a very serious charge seeing as “sowing discord” is something that God specifically says He hates.

Also, if a church has an “anything goes” mentality toward music, that is technically a standard. It’s simply a standard different from yours that you disagree with and think is wrong.

[Pastor Joe Roof] The problem with David Cloud is that a church can have a conservative approach to music and still be highly criticized by him. He even breeds division in such churches. Such division, in my mind, is just as worldly, sometimes even more wordly, than a church that has no music standard.

I do not know you, Joe, other than posting here at SI but you do seem to be a man and a Christian committed to the record of things as they are. I certainly want to be clear that KJVO positions are, to me, just as bad as the excesses of men like John Piper (whose errors I believe are significantly influential) whom I critique more than some others. So I have some objections to certain facets of David Cloud’s views and orthopraxy. However, just as when John Piper may be and should be credited with where he may not error but articulate, with great consideration and precision, theological certainties, I believe David Cloud must be given credit where this is due and I am sure this is not something to which you, nor any fair minded person, would object.

So with that in mind here is something related to the above that I believe is worth using in qualifying David Cloud’s history or approach to issues such as “church music”. In his article, http://www.wayoflife.org/index_files/b5bc9fb9a493e2b5a8f52222a218c8f1-8… Seven Keys to Fruitful Church Membership , David Cloud gives the following account:

A few years ago, I received a letter from a young couple who exhorted me as follows: “Your book on separation is very good, but you may want to add a caveat that a person must have a better church to separate to before he separates from a church. We were shocked at the liberal doctrines held by the fundamental churches in our city.”

Later they wrote to me and shared with me more detail about these things. Following are specific things that they mentioned:

“(1) Their former pastor did not teach that women should not work outside the home, and the wife of the associate pastor worked. (2) The church held parties or fellowships on Valentines Day, Halloween, and Christmas. (3) The pastor allowed a divorced person to work in the bus ministry. (4) The pastor failed to correct publicly certain erroneous statements which were given during testimony times and certain (supposed) erroneous statements which were made by visiting preachers. (5) The pastor failed to do anything about missionaries who joked and told stories in the pulpit. (6) Though the church took a stand for the KJV, this man did not think there was sufficient teaching on the subject of Bible versions. (7) The pastor “used humor to break the tension” in his preaching, whereas this one felt that sober- mindedness required that such levity in the pulpit cease. (8) The pastor seemed to prefer to let God change people about such things as appearance (long hair, ear rings on men, etc.) rather than approach them directly.”

He responds rather unlike the things about David Cloud that I have often heard:

The couple eventually wrote and said they had “separated” from this fundamental Baptist church and from its pastor “because of his liberal teaching on remarriage, women working outside the home and his refusal to correct error.”

It is natural that in any church we will find things with which we do not agree. To practice Bible separation based on the type of things discussed in this letter, though, is not proper or healthy, in my estimation. These are not matters of “liberalism” or apostasy. These are matters of preference, or, at best, relatively minor issues. Church members must deal with many such things.

Then later he deals with matters of importance and their varying weight and this portion includes music:

Pastors and churches are to be judged by the Word of God (1 Thess. 5:21), but church members cannot do this until they first gain the necessary biblical knowledge and discernment required for such judgment. Young Christians need to be extremely cautious and patient about exercising judgment against the pastor. Unless the matter in question is something that is exceedingly plain from the Bible and unless there are mature Christians who can confirm the judgment, it is wise for the immature Christian to the pastor’s greater knowledge and maturity.

One of my evangelist friends differentiates between the “weightier matters” of God’s Word and the less weighty by calling them “fatal” and “non-fatal” teachings. That is a good distinction. It does not mean that the “non-fatal” teachings of God’s Word are of no importance; it simply means they are less important than some other matters.

Some of the “weightier matters” of God’s Word in relation to churches are things such as sound doctrine, the gospel, Christian love, godliness, separation from error, and soul-winning and missions. Some of the less weighty matters are things like the music program (within reason), Sunday School materials, promotions, youth activities (again, within reason), special speakers, and political involvement. Good examples of less weighty matters are the list of eight things mentioned at the beginning of this article: whether or not the church has fellowships at Christmas or jokes being told from the pulpit, etc.

I am not saying that the child of God should ignore Christian rock music or false teaching or unqualified leadership or anything like that. I am not saying we are to be blind to things that are wrong. I am simply saying that not all matters are of equal importance, and we must learn to weigh various issues of church life in order to exercise mature judgment.

It may be that in the past David Cloud has promoted divisions in churches for an unjust cause based in music. I do not know but I am certainly glad to balance this article with those facts if a source can be given. But I do know that this article does not appear to reflect a promotion by David Cloud to divide a church or leave a church for insignificant reasons which include less than conservative music.

So, he is not trying to create division at Lancaster Baptist Church over music? I have seen and personally dealt with too many things related to Cloud to convince me that he is serious that he does not want believers to leave churches over disagreements.

I am not familiar with the details of that matter. Providing them seems beneficial since a public charge has been made. However, I do not believe the OP intends to go in that direction so possibly creating another thread for documenting this would be a good suggestion so it does not get sidetracked from the OP. On the other hand, I could have been misreading you all along. Thanks, though.

While I have no desire to hijack this thread either, I should note that Cloud has specifically mentioned Lancaster and West Coast Baptist several times lately in his e-mailing list (FBIS) and has specifically charged them with poor musical standards and backsliding.

I ran a search on West Coast - http://www.jrank.org/api/search/v2?key=cfa502d3e345d0ac72edc350181195b9…

I also ran a search on Lancaster - http://www.jrank.org/api/search/v2?key=cfa502d3e345d0ac72edc350181195b9…

Yes, I am on the FBIS mailing list :)

Thank you Jay. After reading the material I do not interpret as promoting divisions, rather as his critique of their ministry, most specifically because of its college which will send out many starting churches as well as coming to already existing churches and practice what Cloud believes is a spiritual pernicious error. To me, this is of little difference than criticisms and critiques of other educational institutions and ministries to which others may object. Cloud is not promoting divisions, he is issuing a critique with admonitions.

So, anyway. I do believe David Cloud has a point. To what degree I might or might not agree with its full application, I am not sure. However, it is pure ignorance of the facts, in my mind, if an allegedly mature believer cannot distinguish between music which evokes sensual and carnal interests and that which is much more thoughtful and intended to subdue the flesh with peaceable, pleasant, harmonious and concordant sounds. And it is clear from reading David Cloud that he goes beyond this basic construct. However, this construct-this simple and easily recognized distinction by even a babe in the Lord-is now being argued in many places and promoted as if the music itself makes no difference. And if that is the case, it is not only a Trojan horse but an invasion by invitation.