Steve Pettit and the Skillman family

Regarding the Rocky Top lyrics:

“In 2013, the moonshine reference got the song banned at Plymouth High School in Indiana, where it had been shouted from football stands in support of the Plymouth Rockies for over 20 years. Dan Tyree, the school’s superintendent who banned the song, explained: “We have a hard time seeing how we can continue to let our whole student body celebrate to a song that’s about alcohol.”

https://www.songfacts.com/facts/osborne-brothers/rocky-top

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So a song that is banned by at least one public high school because of its “moonshine reference(s)” is fine in the BJU orbit………I’m just sayin’……….. =)

I did not deny there is a connection between musical styles and sinful hearts. I denied that music styles constitute a fundamental of the faith. In truth, there is a connection between sinful hearts and Everything in this world. But that doesn’t make everything a fundamental of the faith.

The point being that when one contends about too many things, Fundamentalism is diluted because no clear distinction is made between the fundamentals and everything else. One also ceases to be Biblical, because rules are made about things the Bible puts into the category of Christian liberty. Pharisaism destroys Fundamentalism.

Now where do you get that in the Bible?

Are all arts the same? Painting, sculpture, literature, etc? All matters of liberty?

Are the animistic totems of Native Americans (First Nations in Canada) simply a matter of liberty?

How do you define a Biblical standard for any of these? Ought you to?

How do you define a Biblical standard for the conservative music of your church?

If music is just a matter of liberty, you should have no objection if a soloist wants to perform a contemporary piece in a contemporary way.

Don, are any of these fundamentals of the Christian faith? To answer your first question, here is where I get that in the Bible. Those matters which are not Biblically prohibited or required, fall into the category of Christian liberty. To address your second question, saying arts fall into the category of Christian liberty is not the same as saying they are all the same. Where in the world are you coming from with that equation? I skip your third question to address the fourth. I do not attempt to define a Biblical standard for the conservative music for our church. I have told people that as long as I am pastor, my judgment prevails. When the church has someone else as senior pastor, he will use his own judgment, which may or may not differ significantly from mine. Church is not a free for all with everyone having equal authority in what we utilize in worship.

But back to the original premise. Do you consider music styles a fundamental of the Christian faith? How many other fundamentals do you include? I believe that when everything becomes a fundamental, nothing is a fundamental. The word “fundamental” indicates something of greatest importance. If everything is equally important, nothing is of greater significance.

Greg wrote:

I do not attempt to define a Biblical standard for the conservative music for our church. I have told people that as long as I am pastor, my judgment prevails. When the church has someone else as senior pastor, he will use his own judgment, which may or may not differ significantly from mine.

Agreed. A man in my church recently wrote up a brief statement about music that is excellent. I’ll find it and post it here for comment.

[G. N. Barkman]

But back to the original premise. Do you consider music styles a fundamental of the Christian faith? How many other fundamentals do you include? I believe that when everything becomes a fundamental, nothing is a fundamental. The word “fundamental” indicates something of greatest importance. If everything is equally important, nothing is of greater significance.

I don’t consider music styles a fundamental of the faith, i.e., they are not “the faith.” But I do consider them to reflect and be intimately connected with the faith, especially the doctrine of the fall.

Jude says: Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is possible to turn God’s grace into licentiousness and thereby deny Christ. I consider that a fundamental doctrine of practice (while not a fundamental of the faith exactly). To embrace the world is to deny Christ in some measure at least.

So the reason we have conservative standards in our church isn’t “because the pastor says so” but because it is right to have conservative standards.

It’s a little shocking to hear you articulate your views in this way.

[Don Johnson]

I don’t consider music styles a fundamental of the faith, i.e., they are not “the faith.” But I do consider them to reflect and be intimately connected with the faith, especially the doctrine of the fall.

Jude says: Jude 1:4 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

It is possible to turn God’s grace into licentiousness and thereby deny Christ. I consider that a fundamental doctrine of practice (while not a fundamental of the faith exactly). To embrace the world is to deny Christ in some measure at least.

So the reason we have conservative standards in our church isn’t “because the pastor says so” but because it is right to have conservative standards.

It’s a little shocking to hear you articulate your views in this way.

So this upcoming weekend, when about 3,000 people in four contemporary worship services at my church sing several contemporary worship songs that were scrupulously and prayerfully selected by our Worship Pastor, we will not be expressing our love and gratitude for our Savior, but will instead be denying Christ. Because, after all, what was once contemporary itself is now deemed “conservative,” and has become the immutable standard against which the propriety of worship is measured.

Either that, or you have grossly misapplied Jude 1:4 in your comments above.

You are an intelligent and capable man. You need a better understanding of Romans 14 and the I Corinthians liberty passages. I respect your opinions on music, and am happy to let you apply them to your church. But what I find shocking is your defense of holding everyone else to your subjective opinions about music styes. In truth, our preferences in music are probably pretty similar. The difference is, I do not make my church’s practice a fundamental of the faith and you do. A fundamental has to be truly fundamental.

Greg, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say music standards are a fundamental of the faith. I said they are connected to a fundamental of the faith, ie, the sin nature/fall of man.

Regardless, you said yourself that your church standards are “because I say so” - I find that pretty shocking.

Where we do disagree is that I don’t think music falls under Romans 14 at all, nor does any art form. The arts are not indifferent. Whether you eat meat or are a vegetarian is indifferent. Doesn’t matter. But the arts are expressions of the heart.

Anyway, since we keep saying the same thing, maybe it is time to stop?

I’d agree that the case for drinking moonshine even with a “wine is OK” mood is iffy—the straight stuff has a taste somewhere between nothing and kerosene, I’m told, and drinking 180 proof (90%) without getting drunk basically means you stop after a few sips—but it strikes me that if we’re learning about American culture, moonshine is basically something we see a LOT in conservative circles; tax avoidance and rejection of overbearing government. The apparent murder of revenuers is something of a morality tale that when Uncle Sam gets too overbearing, things won’t go too well for him.

It’s not exactly a choir anthem, for sure, but historically and politically significant. Plus, there are a lot of bluegrass Gospel songs out there, and it strikes me as somewhat odd that Pettit doesn’t use some of those. Alison Krauss has done a bunch of ‘em.

In defense of Greg, I don’t understand the distinction you’re trying to make. I don’t know what you’re saying.

[Don Johnson]

Greg, you are putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say music standards are a fundamental of the faith. I said they are connected to a fundamental of the faith, ie, the sin nature/fall of man.

Regardless, you said yourself that your church standards are “because I say so” - I find that pretty shocking.

Where we do disagree is that I don’t think music falls under Romans 14 at all, nor does any art form. The arts are not indifferent. Whether you eat meat or are a vegetarian is indifferent. Doesn’t matter. But the arts are expressions of the heart.

Anyway, since we keep saying the same thing, maybe it is time to stop?

Don, I do not understand exactly what you are saying about the arts not being a liberty issue. Why are they not? (I can’t help but think of the occasional nudity in the BJU Art Gallery, roundly condemned by some. Was it a matter of liberty for BJU to include those paintings?)

[G. N. Barkman]

Don, I do not understand exactly what you are saying about the arts not being a liberty issue. Why are they not? (I can’t help but think of the occasional nudity in the BJU Art Gallery, roundly condemned by some. Was it a matter of liberty for BJU to include those paintings?)

Somebody is bound to reply, “context,” which to me doesn’t at all begin to justify or even explain why a student having a poster of some of the very same artwork on their dorm room wall would in all likelihood face its removal, and demerits…..