Does the M.Div. Have a Future?

Interesting:

The M.Div. shows no signs of passing from existence, but clearly there are movements afoot to broaden the range of seminary options available for students. Growing churches do not necessarily require the M.Div. of their pastors, and a now long track record brings into question the overall necessity of the degree. As Dr. Tony Campolo observed of one megachurch in his book Adventures in Missing the Point, “It was a marketing degree, not an M.Div., that Bill Hybels had when he launched the tiny fellowship that would one day be Willow Creek Community Church.”

Yes, interesting. I thought the church marketing philosophy was supposed to be on the wane. Guess I heard wrong. Who needs pastors trained to exegete and proclaim truth; as long as they sell the idea of the church, everything is rosy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Laws

In the UK, a law degree is an undergraduate program. If a high school grad knows he wants to go into the ministry, why work on 2 degrees? Why can’t much of the content of a M.Div. be put into a BA?

Jonathan, it can be. In fact, if the seminaries weren’t patterned after the world’s system of education, then many things would be different. Money is to be made. Influence is traded like a currency as well. Hard to imagine why churches could be so worldly minded when schools that train are as well.

James, I think those of us connected to seminaries need to bring you in for some consulting because none of us have been able to figure out how to make any money via seminaries. And all these years I was thinking that the money our church pours into assisting churches train men for the ministry was a worth it, but now I find out we could have been actually making money. What an idiot I have been!

Question for DMD- James K’s accusations aside, why don’t seminaries offer or publicize the BTh as some used to in the past? I do understand how education is a value to many, and even the benefit of preparing young men even as they gain life experience through a Bachelors then Masters. Still, there are some men (say, some who enter the process later in life) who might benefit from the opportunities afforded by a BTh, not to mention some who are already serving in pastoral roles in rural churches without advanced training.

Dave, my comment was in relation to the MDiv program. I thought it was pretty obvious since I was addressing something said by another poster. I hope that clears up your confusion.

Greg,

In my understanding, the original BDiv, or BTh was the exact equivalent as the MDiv. I’m not certain if at the time it required an undergraduate degree (I’d have to search through old catalogs of seminaries to figure that one out - but I’ll leave that work to the historians - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDiv - not so good of an article).

I have never met a pastor who has regretted getting an MDiv. I have never met a pastor who regretted learning the languages. I have also met competent men who have not received an MDiv, or studied the languages. However, there should at least be some sort of continuing education going on (whether it is reading, self-study, or formal study, conference attendance) for the pastors. You would expect your doctor to do much of the same.

I don’t regret my M.Div. for a minute. If doctors and lawyers require a three-year graduate degree to prepare them for effective work, why shouldn’t a pastor?

(I’m not arguing for requiring an M.Div. for pastoral ministry, I’m arguing against the idea that the M.Div. is unnecessary.)

I wouldn’t argue against an M. Div. I would also observe, though, that just as the medical field has use for RNs and PAs, so there is a place for pastors and ministers with preparations other than a MDiv, DMin, or PhD.

I’m not sure what the quote from Tony Campolo in the OP is referring to, but I’ve always heard & seen that Hybels has an undergraduate degree from Trinity International University near Chicago. Online sources seem to confirm that:

“Bill received a bachelor’s degree in Biblical Studies and an honorary Doctorate of Divinity from Trinity College in Deerfield, IL.” - http://www.billhybels.org/about.asp

“Hybels has a bachelor’s degree in Biblical Studies from Trinity International University, near Chicago, and an honorary Doctorate of Divinity from TIU’s Trinity Evangelical Divinity School.” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Hybels

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From TIU’s website, here is what the program requires:

http://undergrad.tiu.edu/academics/program/biblical-studies

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Comment from Jim: Sent to me via email

I attended FBBC, receiving a BA in Biblical Studies. I also took some Masters/MDiv courses. Because of the “second degree” people (those that had received degrees in other fields other than Bible), many of the graduate classes I took were more elemental than the upper under-graduate classes I had already taken. The MDiv is 96 hours. My BA was 128. I honestly think that I received a better overall Bible education than those that took the MDiv. That may not be true for everyone everywhere, but I could not justify the cost and investment of time and money to pursue what overlapped so much with what I already had.

This said, I did not have the undergirding or benefit of a general degree or other degree. I just would suggest that it is hard to compare courses of study on some artificial graduated scale.

I like Bauder’s idea of a broader or at least different education before the M.Div. I went that route and I believe it has enhanced my ministry a great deal. To me that makes more sense than doing biblical studies twice. The seminary level work was certainly more taxing than my undergraduate work, though that will vary from school to school at either level.

The Master’s Seminary will, on occasion, take men without an undergraduate degree. They will have the education, but not the full diploma until they get an undergraduate degree. We have a young man in our church right now on that course. He is gaining a lot for his future ministry, doing well, and at this point does not care about the letters after his name.

When I received my MDiv in 1982 most graduates took one of several tracks: Continued studies (ThM) heading toward teaching, taking an existent church, or church planting. The four years spent working on an MDiv were well spent. I worked full-time and was involved in a church plant. From there I went into church planting and then further training and degrees after several years in ministry.

Now over 30 years later I still see the need for the MDiv although I recognize the challenges involved relocating, employment, expense, etc. For those who can, I would advise to get as much as you can before you enter the pastorate. I have seen many regret launching into ministry unprepared and few who have regretted advanced training including biblical languages. Personally I would not have wanted to be in ministry without having studied Greek and Hebrew. It may be arduous but it is rewarding. Again, not everyone will follow the same track or have the same opportunities. Those few years of sacrifice might help to prolong ministry. It’s a good investment.

The one thing I might do differently is my undergrad. I am thankful for the rigorous BA training I received at BJ including Hebrew and Greek that held me in good stead in seminary. As a side note, I believe the study of those languages helped me in further language study when I studied French and Romanian. However I often recommend that men consider a major other than Bible IF they are contemplating seminary. My Bible training at BJ was good but apart from the languages, and since all students take some Bible courses, I don’t think my undergrad biblical studies were critical.

This is especially important if someone plans to be involved in church planting and needs to be bi-vocational. The four degrees I had in my pocket didn’t help much at the age of 55 when I moved back into Philadelphia to be part of a church planting team. Thankfully, God opened the door to become an addiction therapist in the prison system. My pastoral training got me in the door and allowed me to work toward certification. But it was not enough in itself. Training is lifelong. The more arrows in your quiver the more resilient you might be in ministry.

Steve Davis

Western Reformed Seminary which is near me offers a B. Div.

They are Bible Presbyterian. I actually considered taking some classes there even though I am Dispensational.