10 Things I'd Do Differently if I Weren't a Pastor Today

As someone who has also been on both sides of the pulpit, all I could do was nod my head. Excellent article. Already forwarded it to everyone I know.

as i mentioned on another thread recently, this is propaganda for the church industry. of course the guy who needs people involved to feel good about himself wants more people involved encouraging him. it’s me-centric ministry and a faulty understanding of the true purpose of the church. it’s western thinking ceo modeled church as business. it’s pastor need oriented. this philosophy has underminded the power of the church as an inclusive body.

Ditto

Of course being in someone else’s shoes gives one an appreciation for that situation or position. For the most part, I see nothing wrong with advocating for the behaviors on the list - some of which are clearly based on Biblical principles (don’t gossip, pray, be supportive, serve …). But I think we can only be in other people’s shoes to a small degree, because we have our own shoes to deal with, and we need to be careful about guilt-trippin’ folks into pitying or doing more for us because “If they only knew how hard my life is…” Everyone experiences struggles based on what God has called them to do.

Also, if the church has unBiblical or just unfair expectations of the pastor, they need teaching on Scripturally healthy relationship boundaries.

Excellent. I’d add “Though not being a pastor by vocation, I would strive to achieve the theological depth that a pastor ought to have in order to be able to love God and serve Him better”

[dmicah]

as i mentioned on another thread recently, this is propaganda for the church industry. of course the guy who needs people involved to feel good about himself wants more people involved encouraging him. it’s me-centric ministry and a faulty understanding of the true purpose of the church. it’s western thinking ceo modeled church as business. it’s pastor need oriented. this philosophy has underminded the power of the church as an inclusive body.

I think, regarding Micah’s comment and Chip’s response, is that (really per my first comment) whether it’s “church industry” or “Biblical church” really depends on whether the congregation is trained, willing, are encouraged to be good Bereans. There are pastors who welcome feedback, and those who do not—the former are those who follow in the lines of Christ and Paul, the latter are the church industrialists.

(knowing as well that of course not every bit of feedback is right, well intentioned, etc..)

So do you love your pastor enough to be a good Berean and hold him accountable for what he preaches? Argue fairly, argue from real authority (not just some thin book you get from CBD), but are you willing to love your pastor enough to be a good Berean? After all, getting a timely rebuke (if needed) from a member can spare a pastor from a lifetime of poor instruction and a far greater rebuke from the Lord, no?

[dmicah]

as i mentioned on another thread recently, this is propaganda for the church industry. of course the guy who needs people involved to feel good about himself wants more people involved encouraging him. it’s me-centric ministry and a faulty understanding of the true purpose of the church. it’s western thinking ceo modeled church as business. it’s pastor need oriented. this philosophy has underminded the power of the church as an inclusive body.

I’m going to go further than Chip, I have no idea where this thought came from. This comment sounds like it could be from someone who has not had much exposure to life in a pastor’s home and/or is not in the ministry as a Sr. pastor. It is naive at best, reckless at worst.

Pastors are people to and just like everyone else they can be me-centric. Of course! But to default to saying this guy needs people to make him feel good is careless.

I grew up in a pastor’s home as a PK and several in my extended family are/were senior pastors. I never heard them sit around complaining & having a pity party. But I know ministry can weigh heavy on their hearts as they can often minister to a family over and over and over again only to have that family not follow through. How would you feel if minutes before you are going to preach on a Sunday morning an angry church member walks up and starts to unload on you-and have that happen multiple times? What would you think after your child was severely injured in an accident at home a deacon accused you of intentionally harming your child?

Pastors & their families are not above justifiable criticism, just like anyone else. But they are not punching bags either. Unfortunately many people see them as less of the former and more of the latter.

Paul encourages unity and unselfishness in the church so that in part their leaders can lead the church with joy (Phil 1:27—2:4). President Dan Akins of SE seminary said that 80% of his seminary grads leave the ministry within the first ten years of vocational ministry. Leaders at Southern report that 95% drop out before age 65. Here are men who did 96 credits of grad work at 450 dollars a credit hour and then walk away within a decade. No industry I know of has this kind of attrition rate. Edmondson’s article should be taken seriously not cynically.

I have been a pastor for 35 years through times both good and bad. I have also had many pastor friends; I know what is going on in my neck of the woods, so I will say this without apology: Not every situation is alike. I have known churches that treat pastors like hired hands and send ‘em through the meat grinder. I know of other churches that treat their pastors like human beings, not functionaries.

Overall, though, I must agree that the article quoted shows more concern for mutual edification than some other posts. Pastors are gifts to the church (Ephesians 4:11-12). It is really about obeying Hebrews 13:17

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.

Nasty people with nasty attitudes make we leaders groan, to say the least. Based on this verse, church people are SUPPOSED to consider the impact of their words and actions on their pastors, among other leaders. The way some people act, this verse may as well be nixed from the Bible.

I don’t know how the stats hold up today, but I’m told that engineering graduates tend to spend only about 7 years in their trade. Now granted, the pay tends to be better, and many/most do so with “just” a BS, but it does illustrate that there are other trades that have short retention. I also remember (and this is to be sure > 20 year old recollection here) that social work has a mean time to quitting of about two years. So there are other trades that tend to wear people out quickly.

That said, I think there is a real question of whether what’s being dropped is “corporate ministry” or “Biblical ministry”. Now I can understand wearing out in Biblical ministry if one is among “Thessalonians” instead of “Bereans”, and we ought to take that very seriously. Far too many of us are “Thessalonians”, applying our own biases and failing to apply the Scripture, after all.

On the flip side, there is an error in ministry of making the whole enterprise too corporate. This can occur when:

1. The pastor adopts a “my way or the highway” attitude in all areas, not just theologically significant areas.

2. He surrounds himself with loyal staff who will intercept all feedback before it gets to him.

3. He pursues growth in numbers without growth in depth in faith.

4. His interaction with members only occurs when he needs them to do something.

It’s most obvious when you see it in mega-churches, where boards of elders and deacons are replaced with hired help and boards of “other mega-church pastors”, but one of the worst cases I’ve seen actually was with a church with average attendance below 40. If it doesn’t make sense to you, that’s wonderful.

[Mike Harding]

Paul encourages unity and unselfishness in the church so that in part their leaders can lead the church with joy (Phil 1:27—2:4). President Dan Akins of SE seminary said that 80% of his seminary grads leave the ministry within the first ten years of vocational ministry. Leaders at Southern report that 95% drop out before age 65. Here are men who did 96 credits of grad work at 450 dollars a credit hour and then walk away within a decade. No industry I know of has this kind of attrition rate. Edmondson’s article should be taken seriously not cynically.

Edmonson’s article should be taken as it is: ‘man centered’ ministry. Pastors take too much upon themselves when in truth it is Jesus who is building His church. Our eyes should be focused on Christ not the undershepherd. It is Christ who is with the believer always not the undershepherd.

It is fallen human nature to always focus on the visible, in this case the visible local church (as if this is all that God is doing in redemption and sustaining creation).

dmicah has it mostly correct: this is “church industry.” Harding even uses the word “industry.” If its “industry” its carnal and folks maybe are just ‘playing church’. It is a house built on sand that is sure to fall. This is the age of the New Covenant where every believer’s prayers enter within the veil. Christ is our High Priest without the undershepherd possibly getting in the way. Paul’s pattern seemed to be bi-vocation and church building projects are unheard of in scripture (I am not theoretically against single vocation or church buildings per se, in fact, synagogues were purpose-built for assembly). However, the personal empire-building and mega facilities all appeal to the flesh (carnal) and don’t really conform to the pattern of going out as missionaries and then teaching faithful men to go out and do the same. It is a subtle distinction but it needs to be made.

All this leads to a false ‘Christian culture’ and an over-institutionalization of Christian schools, but I digress.

that if someone suggests you support the pastor of the church you are presumably a member of, that you attend worship and do service at the church you are presumably a member of, that you are somehow “man centered”?

Why do so many at SI assume every pastor is some closet Jack Hyles looking to build his own little kingdom?

Is having more than one service a week, a “nice” building, and a full-time pastor really a “church industry” that is unbiblical and needs to be eliminated?

I highly suspect some people are overreacting to some bad things they experienced and are applying it to everyone else.

While not as cynical as dmicah, I do see a guy for whom the shoe is on the other foot. Member-elder (or member-pastor) is a relationship. Each has duties, good responses, etc. So yeah, now that he’s on the other side of that relationship, he acknowledges that there were things he didn’t even think about that he should have been doing as a lay-person for the benefit of himself, his church, and his pastor.

And later, if he is again a lay-person, maybe he’ll be reminded of what his wishes pastors were like and he can profess that he would be perfect if he were in that role. That’s harsh. But I think a better article would be: 10 Things I Do Differently As a Pastor Because I Wasn’t a Pastor For a Long Time.

That is a question I’d like to see answered. Many (it seems to me) take the position if a church is not led by a group of elders it is either a clone of FBC Hammond or well on the road to becoming one.

[Mark_Smith]

SNIP

Why do so many at SI assume every pastor is some closet Jack Hyles looking to build his own little kingdom?

SNIP