By SI Filings Jun 28 2021 Evangelical Support of TrumpCapitol Riot"...three people associated with the Global Outreach Ministries church in Melbourne, Florida, were arrested and charged for their involvement with the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol." - C. Leaders 4430 reads There are 25 Comments What can be done.... Bert Perry - Mon, 06/28/2021 - 10:31am ....when the FBI is motivated. Now, let's talk about the wrongs done by the BATFE in Fast & Furious, the IRS in their nonprofit accreditation scandal (still ongoing if some recent news is indicative), the FBI vis-a-vis the false claim of Russian interference in the 2016 elections and use of the unvetted Steele/Clinton dossier, and the failure to act for the past 20 years as Occupy, Antifa, and others have terrorized American cities. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Bert Perry wrote: dgszweda - Mon, 06/28/2021 - 11:52am Bert Perry wrote: Now, let's talk about the wrongs done by the BATFE in Fast & Furious... deflection. Whether they were caught or not is only partly relevant. The bigger relevancy is the theology associated with a pastor storming the US capital building committing numerous crimes. Nope Bert Perry - Mon, 06/28/2021 - 12:30pm No doubt that being willing to participate in a riot does speak to the theology of those doing so. That said, there is also a very big issue where the FBI seems to be very motivated to investigate crimes committed (or as in the case of Carter Paige and President Trump, not committed nor plausible) by Republicans, but not so motivated to investigate those claimed against Democrats. It's a hard way to run a republic, to put it mildly. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Some of the items you dgszweda - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 7:08am Some of the items you mentioned are more Trump and right wing narratives than actual threats. For example, only one death has been attributed to Antifa, and that individual was subsequently shot while being arrested. more than 40 people have died from white supremacy in the last 2 years. There is no evidence that Antifa is part of the domestic terroism threat to the US, but enormous evidence that white supremacy is a serious threat to the US. While there may be instances of slant in investigations (remember much of this is political to begin with), it isn't as extreme as the narratives that are pedaled would have you believe. Let's count it all Bert Perry - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 9:36am David, that's a rather selective way of determining the death toll and impact of Antifa, Occupy, and BLM. Due to many factors, but very significantly "defund the police" and the failure of politicians to stand up for the force, murder rates in many big cities were up 30-40% last year. That's 120 extra deaths in New York City alone. Add to that the billions of dollars in property damage and the economic ruination of thousands of business owners and workers, and you've got a seriously big issue here. It isn't entirely the fault of the FBI, but Antifa and Occupy both did commit federal crimes, and just like their spectacular record in the Nassar case, and just like their spectacular record in the Hilliary Clinton server investigation, the FBI were nowhere to be found. And yes, the Hilliary investigation; for months, they didn't even issue a subpoena to get the server on which hundreds of pieces of classified information were stored. When I was working for TRW at Space Park--this is the company immortalized as "RTX" in The Falcon and the Snowman--HR made very clear to us that if people got word that any of us were screwing around with classified information, the FBI would have all our electronic devices (and us) in custody by the end of the day. Again, the FBI is saying a lot about their priorities by what they do, and do not, investigate. I'm glad they're putting effort into this, but the overall lack of effort for investigating crimes that are committed by Democrats speaks volumes. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. So we are to believe that the Ken S - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 10:28am So we are to believe that the FBI is politically slanted to ignore crimes by Democrats and focus on Republicans? I find that somewhat hard to believe, especially since the current director is a Trump appointee. It seems more likely that the magnitude of what took place on January 6 is what is motivating the FBI. Ken S wrote: dgszweda - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 11:24am Ken S wrote: So we are to believe that the FBI is politically slanted to ignore crimes by Democrats and focus on Republicans? I find that somewhat hard to believe, especially since the current director is a Trump appointee. It seems more likely that the magnitude of what took place on January 6 is what is motivating the FBI. Exactly. The FBI, the executive branch, the Justice Department, the Supreme Court, the federal courts were all occupied by Trump appointees. The reason why there was nothing, is because there was nothing. Bill Barr claimed that antifa was responsible for the riots after George Floyd's death. 51 individuals faced federal charges. None of the people arrested were found to have any antifa links. The police, FBI and Justice Department could not find any. So it lands on the heap of a narrative with no real truth behind it. Then you have the Capitol Riot, which was fully coordinated by White Supremicist, with plenty of recorded evidence. They storm the capitol building the very soul of our democracy, to overthrow duly elected officials who had not committed a single crime. They setup gallows, chanted that they were going to hang people, including the VP. And somehow the FBI is blowing this out of proportion. January 6th, if it had continued to the end result that was desired by many in that crowd would have been the single biggest threat to American Democracy since the founding of this country. Exactly not Bert Perry - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 12:27pm So an unarmed incursion into the Capitol is a bigger deal than the likelihood that Mrs. Clinton's illegal and unsecured server was exposing the inner workings of the State Department to anyone who figured out it existed? It's a bigger deal than the strong likelihood that Joe Biden was selling influence in return for sinecures for his son? It's a bigger deal than the very real deaths of 300 Mexican nationals and at least two Border Patrol agents who died because the BATFE commanded gun dealers to allow known ineligible purchasers to buy assault rifles? It's a bigger deal than the fact that Patrick Fitzgerald's office mysteriously "leaked" just as the identities of people bidding for Barack Obama's Senate seat would have become known? It's a bigger deal than Lois Lerner ("oopsie") illegally using political affiliation as a proxy for increased surveillance of Tea Party groups--and thus keeping many on the sidelines for (ahem) the 2012 elections? Seriously? Really, Patrick Fitzgerald is a case study for bias here. He took out Scooter Libby despite learning three weeks into his investigation that no real crime was committed in unveiling Valerie Plame status, generating the "lying to investigators" conviction with an unwarranted investigation. In l'affaire Blago, his office leaked just as the investigation into Blago really would have gotten interesting (and likely devastating for Illinois Democrats). At my alma mater, Fitzgerald "exonerated" MSU in the Larry Nassar case without as much as a report. 500 million bucks later, we know how that one turned out. Evidence suggests the man is for sale. Jim Comey is similar. He's the guy who hounded Martha Stewart into a "lying to investigators" conviction long after he determined that her sale of ImClone stock was not illegal, is the guy who failed to even subpoena evidence in the open and shut Hilliary Clinton case, then said "well, we'd never try to convict her, but you plebians shouldn't try this", and then leaked memos to the NY Times to get tne Mueller investigation started when he was fired. Also worth noting is that the IRS has been caught using religious viewpoints as if they were political in applications for 501C3 status again. Really, the Capitol invasion was an attempt to overturn an election--and so is this abuse of the IRS. Brothers, this stuff is serious. It's not that the Capitol riot is not, but if it's worth the FBI's time to investigate this, it's worth their time to investigate these other things seriously, too. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Yes the unarmed incursion dgszweda - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 2:51pm Yes the unarmed incursion into the Capitol is more serious than all of that. It had the potential, if carried to its logical end to subvert the Constitution and essentially destroy America as we know it. Then all of the other things you mentioned are irrelevant. Clinton is not the first person to use a personal email server. Colin Powell did it. Is there any uproar over him? Nope. We have been going on and on about the Clinton email server. No one has found anything. Trump didn't find anything. If someone finds something great. But if Trump and his team couldn't find anything, than I am not that concerned. Same with Biden's son. The funny thing is that in the end it is going to be Guiliani that will be in trouble for selling favors to Ukraine. If they had something than Rudy wouldn't need to be doing all of this back handed stuff to try to get them to announce something on Biden's son. Bert, there is probably a secret cabal that is controlling all of this and hiding this from the public. There is a secret group of politicians and important people that are really controlling things here and that is who we need to find and chase after. I have heard of this group from someone whose name starts with a Q, but I can't remember. Bring out the fainting couch, I guess Bert Perry - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 4:09pm ....for those who think that the incursion of unarmed protesters really was an existential threat to the republic. Let's be honest; even if they had been armed, they were going to get past security and the Secret Service exactly how? They would have been slaughtered, and as the prosecutions continue, it will become very clear that the protesters and their leaders knew that well. Yes, it was an attempt to subvert an election, but that is exactly like what Lois Lerner did with the IRS, and that is exactly like what Clinton, Comey, and Mueller did with the Steele dossier. It is also exactly what Comey did by refusing to issue a subpoena regarding the server that held at least 1586 emails holding confidential or top secret information--22 in the latter category. If you doubt this, look up 18 USC 798. Since you mention Powell, the inventory of his email (which he actually provided to the government, ahem) revealed two that were later classified as confidential. No doubt he shouldn't have used private email, as it subverts government accountability and confidentiality, but his crimes were nowhere near as significant as Mrs. Clinton's. You can mock the pattern as much as you like, but when there's a consistent pattern of 'making mistakes" in big cases, especially where one side of the political aisle seems to benefit, that's the point where a thinking person ought to wonder whether that many smart people are making that many dumb mistakes, or whether there's a reason that these particular things are being dropped. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Bert Perry wrote: dgszweda - Tue, 06/29/2021 - 7:22pm Bert Perry wrote: ....for those who think that the incursion of unarmed protesters really was an existential threat to the republic. Let's be honest; even if they had been armed, they were going to get past security and the Secret Service exactly how? The issue is that they were a threat. They had weapons, including pipe bombs and they did get past security. Many layers of it. The problem that you are facing is that you are selectively focusing on perceived items that you felt should have gotten prosecuted and then you make a blanket statement that the FBI focuses more on conservatives and ignore liberal issues. I will just give you one example. Most liberals thought that Mueller and subsequently the Justice department should have gone farther with Trump. Most legal experts agree that wrongdoing was committed and that it could have been prosecuted. Trumps head of the Justice department shot it down and refused to prosecute based on long standing tradition. This is no different than what Comey did with Clinton's email. He said almost the same words that Mueller used. You are caught up in an echo chamber that reinforces your beliefs and concerns. If you flip the coin you have the same issue. The damage that white supremcist and far right people have done is much greater than what far left people have done. In fact, you are driving the same narrative that Timothy McVeigh used when he became angry when federal agents and other individuals were not held accountable. So he bombed the federal building killing 168 people and injuring 684 others. In the last 25 years the far right has killed 329 people. To this day do evidence or charges have been produced against any deaths of Antifa. I am not saying Antifa is perfect. But you are just playing into the Trump narrative that all of the violence in this country is solely in the realm of Antifa Bert Perry wrote: Ken S - Wed, 06/30/2021 - 6:42am Bert Perry wrote: ....for those who think that the incursion of unarmed protesters really was an existential threat to the republic. Let's be honest; even if they had been armed, they were going to get past security and the Secret Service exactly how? They would have been slaughtered, and as the prosecutions continue, it will become very clear that the protesters and their leaders knew that well. Yes, let's be honest. They were rioters with weapons, not unarmed protesters. The rioters DID get past security and were very close to being able to get their hands on legislators. There is no doubt that they would have killed some of them if they could have. The rioters were in the building for hours before police gained control, and they wasn't enough law enforcement in the building to "slaughter" them. And why were members of Congress hunkered down waiting for a way to escape the building if the danger was not imminent? And would the crowd chanting "hang Mike Pence" not have carried out their threat if they had been able to capture the vice-president, which they were almost able to do? There is plenty of information on what happened that day available, and it is clear that members of Congress were in very real, life-threatening danger. The sanitized right-wing news reports of what actually took place on January 6 are not an accurate description of the real story. Watching video and listening to some of the stories from Capitol police is pretty chilling. And that is why the FBI is taking this so seriously...because it was. Let's use that example Bert Perry - Wed, 06/30/2021 - 8:49am Most liberals thought that Mueller and subsequently the Justice department should have gone farther with Trump. Most legal experts agree that wrongdoing was committed and that it could have been prosecuted. Now, let's contrast this with what the Mueller investigation actually achieved; a net total of zero convictions for crimes related to the ostensible reason for the investigation, and his report found no evidence of collusion with Russia. In other words, Dave's found a group of so-called "legal experts" who think it's somehow just to go off nonsense evidence to bleed people dry, one billable hour at a time, while on the other side of the aisle, open and shut cases can't even get a grand jury convened, let alone a subpoena issued or an indictment made. That's a big part of why that crowd was at the Capitol, guys. And don't think that I haven't noticed that you haven't really dealt with the evidence I provided of how some very serious cases that would impact the left heavily are languishing. One other note; there were no pipe bombs or other weapons found at the Capitol. They were found at Republican and Democratic headquarters outside buildings away from the Capitol. So like I noted before, there was no serious threat to life posed by the rioters, as they were unarmed. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Bert Perry wrote: Kevin Miller - Wed, 06/30/2021 - 7:47pm Bert Perry wrote: One other note; there were no pipe bombs or other weapons found at the Capitol. They were found at Republican and Democratic headquarters outside buildings away from the Capitol. So like I noted before, there was no serious threat to life posed by the rioters, as they were unarmed. Wouldn't the chant "hang Mike Pence" be, in and of itself, a serious threat to life? One wouldn't even need an actual weapon to carry that out. A piece of rope would have been sufficient. I’m Split On This. Joeb - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 12:11am I'm a never Trumper and was an Agent when Timothy McVeigh and company did their thing. So I greatly dislike the Trump's White Supremacist Thugs who tried to overthrow my Government for a complete lie. I also agree these White Supremacist Domestic Terrorists are a bigger threat to our Country especially with Trump and his mouthpieces stoking the fire. However I'm not a fan of the FBI either. Amongst other Federal Agencies the FBI is well hated. DEA probably hates them the most. I had a personal experience with them which left a very bad taste in my mouth so I'll leave it at that. Can you carry the threat out? Bert Perry - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 8:24am Kevin Miller wrote: Bert Perry wrote: One other note; there were no pipe bombs or other weapons found at the Capitol. They were found at Republican and Democratic headquarters outside buildings away from the Capitol. So like I noted before, there was no serious threat to life posed by the rioters, as they were unarmed. Wouldn't the chant "hang Mike Pence" be, in and of itself, a serious threat to life? One wouldn't even need an actual weapon to carry that out. A piece of rope would have been sufficient. Well, can you and a couple dozen of your buddies make it past a few dozen Secret Service agents armed with a rope? There is a certain point where this becomes like me arguing I'm going to get past the 101st Airborne and give the commanding officer a noogie. It just ain't gonna happen. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Bert Perry wrote: Ken S - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 9:01am Bert Perry wrote: Well, can you and a couple dozen of your buddies make it past a few dozen Secret Service agents armed with a rope? There is a certain point where this becomes like me arguing I'm going to get past the 101st Airborne and give the commanding officer a noogie. It just ain't gonna happen. Your statements simply not reflect the reality of the situation on January 6, and it's astounding to me that you are trying to minimize the danger that the vice president/Congress faced. There were firearms, bear spray, and even a crossbow in the mob. Rioters made it to within very close proximity to the vice president and members of Congress and only narrowly escaped getting caught by the mob. This information is literally all over the internet, complete with pictures and video. It's not even debatable. Bert Perry wrote: Kevin Miller - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 10:38am Bert Perry wrote: Kevin Miller wrote: Bert Perry wrote: One other note; there were no pipe bombs or other weapons found at the Capitol. They were found at Republican and Democratic headquarters outside buildings away from the Capitol. So like I noted before, there was no serious threat to life posed by the rioters, as they were unarmed. Wouldn't the chant "hang Mike Pence" be, in and of itself, a serious threat to life? One wouldn't even need an actual weapon to carry that out. A piece of rope would have been sufficient. Well, can you and a couple dozen of your buddies make it past a few dozen Secret Service agents armed with a rope? There is a certain point where this becomes like me arguing I'm going to get past the 101st Airborne and give the commanding officer a noogie. It just ain't gonna happen. I'm not sure why you're comparing this to the 101st Airborne. Do you think the vice president was being protected by "a few dozen" Secret Service agents? I'm sure he had some agents around him, but it wasn't a few dozen, and the rioters were able to get past capitol security. Or do you think that the rioters didn't actually get past the capitol security and that the riot footage was all staged? What I think Bert Perry - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 10:53am Is that the Secret Service and Capitol Security were primarily concerned with getting Congress and the VP out of danger, which they quickly achieved. For better or worse, the Capitol police largely did not engage with the rioters as they came in--if they had, of course, casualties would have been far, far worse, because the Capitol police were of course armed with weapons that were unquestionably lethal. You guys are confusing the fact that the rioters were basically allowed in with the claim that the attack was reminiscent of the Rangers at Pointe du Hoc. It's a different kind of thing that went on. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. White supremacy the greater danger? dcbii - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 11:19am I completely disagree that "white supremacy" is the greater danger in our country. Why? Because it is small, contained, and, most importantly, recognized as a danger. People rightly experience revulsion when these events occur, like the car driven into the crowd in Charlottesville, the January 6th event (although I'm not sure all of the ~900 people who entered the capitol building could rightly be called "white supremacist"). But when BLM/Antifa riots happen, the reaction is either "nothing to see here," or "Good for them!" If you want to consider January 6th, compare the number of people involved with the thousands of people in the BLM/Antifa riots, and the ~$1.5 million in damage with the ~$500 million in riot damage during the new "summer of love," or the number of people killed (really only the one person on January 6th if you don't count incidental deaths, but even if you do, it's only 5) with the numbers of people killed in the BLM/Antifa rioting. But again, the main point isn't the numbers. It's that people see what happened January 6th as a danger (as they should, even though plenty of the people that entered illegally were not violent -- I don't know the percentage), but the much larger riots are seen as what, a necessary consequence of social change? People are constantly on the lookout for white supremacy showing its head, but they refuse to see anything violent that comes from supposedly "the right kind of thinking" as an actual danger, even though the death and destruction (not to mention the long-term consequences to the idea of upholding law and order) is actually higher. And if barricading and setting on fire a police station is not a direct attack on the government, then nothing is. Don't get me wrong -- people who commit crimes in the name of white supremacy should be pursued without mercy, as any crimes resulting from overt racism should. However, ignoring open racism, racial division, and threats to the rule of law from "the right people" is wrong, and not recognizing that fact makes that thinking a much greater danger than white supremacy, which, BtW, only a very small percentage of people who could be called Trump supporters actually hold, and even fewer of those have committed acts of violence for their cause. The unseen enemy is considered by many to be a greater danger than enemies we can see and understand. But an enemy that is seen, but ignored, rather than countered, or even falsely considered to be a friend is a much greater danger than one we already recognize and fight as such. Dave Barnhart On White Supremacy Bert Perry - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 11:42am The old joke is that if you go to a KKK meeting, two of three people there are FBI moles. I don't know that this still holds, but the reality is that yes, white supremacists are largely contained. To draw a picture about the seriousness of Antifa/"defund the police", along with some elements of BLM, the number of people murdered in 2020 was about 25% higher than in 2019, for an additional 4000-5000 deaths. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Bert There Were Casualties Joeb - Thu, 07/01/2021 - 8:48pm Bert post attack 2 Police Officers committed Suicide and another one died during the attack. 60 Police Officers sustained life altering injuries. Basicly they are disabled for life. Like Officer Fanone beaten and tased to an inch of his life. Fanone suffered Brain Trauma and a heart attack and PTSD. Other officers suffered head trauma discs blown out in their lower backs eye balls ripped out of their heads and one had every rib in his body broken etc. My personal opinion is more deadly force should have been used and the one time was totally justified. I read somewhere that there were 4 Secret Service Agents escorting Pence out. I'd guess at least two were armed with MP 5s with Sig Sauer 357s as backup which is what I carried. Hence they could put up a pretty big fight if attacked by a crowd. Only so many people can come down a hall at time which makes a perfect killing zone. So to a degree Bert is right. Bert this was an attempt instigated by Trump to bully the Democrats into giving up power. Even if there is a second attack it still has to be an all out a shock and awe attack to even have any chance of being successful. Trump can't wait for a strung out insurrection using bombing and ambush attacks. Trump needs an instant overthrow, because of the criminal and civil authorities coming after him and his business empire. So the question is will there be another attack. Trump is a GREAT BIG COWARD AND SO ARE HIS FAMILY MEMBERS so I don't see them with their AR 15 rallying the TRUMPERS for an attack like Trump said he would do. Trump scampered back to the Whitehouse to watch it unfold on TV screens. There is a video where he is delighting at what is happening. Agreed Bert Perry - Fri, 07/02/2021 - 9:52am Joe, no doubt that some officers suffered due to that debacle. I'm just saying that when we compare these impacts with other things, I have to wonder why on earth we're not putting more effort into other things that are bigger on the Pareto. Glad there were enough stern minds there to avoid a debacle as Joe describes, though I have to think that such backbones in DC seem to correlate only with MP5s to back it up these days. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud. Interesting Article I Read Bert Joeb - Sat, 07/03/2021 - 12:05am I don't know if this is true but article said the real shooter of the Lady Protestor from the 1/6/21 was one of the Secret Service Agents from Pence's protection detail. The article says that they reported the shooter as a Capital Police Officer to give Pence cover from Trump's Followers and to protect the reputation of the US Secret Service. I don't know if it is true, but when you watch the shooter he is in a suit and tie which to me indicates he was an 1811 Criminal Investigator not a Uniformed Officer per say. It still doesn't mean the shooter was not a Capital Police Officer but sure makes me wonder if the shooter was someone from Pence's security detail. If Pence was in the room at the time and the people were breaking down the door and yelling were going to kill you all in there the Secret Service Special Agent may have looser rules on using deadly force. Now I believe it was a clean shoot. If I was in North Philly and surrounded by 3 or 4 young good size men threatening to beat me to death I would be justified in using deadly force to protect myself even if they were unarmed. It's my understanding the Officer at that time was the only person standing between the 20 Legislators and the mob threatening to kill them. Even if Pence left one of the Secret Service Agents could have been left in the room to protect the Legislators if no one else was available. Im completely disgusted with Trump and the TRUMPERS making it out like the lady was assassinated. Give me a break. If I was there and armed and that crowd of Domestic Terrorists were out there beating my fellow Lawmen to death I probably would have started shooting those doing the beatings in the head. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I would have laid down my life for my fellow Agents even if that meant me dying. However I'd take a lot of them with me. Thank the Lord I was never put in that situation. it's very sad that the TRUMPERS and the Republicans keep playing it down. All the lies Trump and his minions told to cause this. My prayer is Trump Rudy and Matt Gaetz go to jail. To think Gatez Greene and Dohbert make themselves out to be believers in our Lord. If any of these Comgressmen or Congresswomen were in on the attack I hope they do 10 to 20 years. Allegations have been made against Dohbert. If the pistol packing Mama was stupid enough to be involved and risk being taken away from her 5 young children for 10 to 20 for Donald Trump then she is totally a fool. Hopefully that's not the case for any of the Republicans. The FBI is asking about it and it seems those brave Patriot White Supremacist Terrorist are squealing like little pigs to the FBI. The FBI might have to get a pig pen. Actual identity Bert Perry - Wed, 07/07/2021 - 9:49am Apparently the Sergeant at arms accidentally disclosed the identity of the shooter of Ashlii Babbitt. It was not a secret service agent, but rather a Capitol police officer said to have left his service pistol in the bathroom on another occasion. Was it a clean shoot? Well, I'd have to see what the investigation revealed. Huh, they kept it secret, didn't they? My overall take is that if a person climbing through a window was deemed to be an imminent threat, there were any number of other imminent threats that ought to have been met with lethal force. So my gut feeling is that the "investigation" was a "whitewash". You generally don't cover your tracks when your case is strong. Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.