Did Jesus Make Mistakes?

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Paul J. Scharf's picture

After watching as much of the unedited clip as I could stomach, I am reinforced in my wonderment of what people see in this guy.

If he were honest, by his own admission of not knowing whether or not he is preaching heresy, he would give up his empire and go to seminary.

As far as I am concerned, he is preaching blasphemy, not just heresy. Listen very carefully. He obviously has not seriously studied Christology or the hypostatic union.

Personally, I find everything about this clip off-putting - from his dress to his preaching style to the decor of the stage.

It is beyond me how he got to be an influential "Christian leader" - other than as a sign of the times, I guess.

 

Church Ministries Representative for the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

Darrell Post's picture

Driscoll seems to be more the stuff of 2 Timothy 3:1-7 rather than 1 Timothy 3:1-7.

mmartin's picture

I get it that when Jesus was young he likely had to learn some things just like the rest of us.

But why talk about it from the pulpit?  Totally unnecessary and pointless.

Any good Driscoll may have to offer is overshadowed by His constant silly & provocative behavior and unnecessary baggage.

Sean Fericks's picture

Pastor Driscoll is a sinner, saved by grace.  Certainly, he has made some serious, perhaps even disqualifying "mistakes".  Which one of us has not?  However, I wonder how many other pastors would be able to stand in the spotlight like he has, and come out with their reputations intact.  This whole "mistakes" business is a sad affair, and we blow it all out of proportion.  The topic, as Pastor Driscoll described it, is certainly interesting, and worthy of some discussion in our congregations. 

Darrell Post's picture

"However, I wonder how many other pastors would be able to stand in the spotlight like he has, and come out with their reputations intact."

I wonder how many other pastors would be able to stand in the spotlight, declare that Jesus puts pornographic videos into their heads, and come out with their reputations intact. Yes, Driscoll is on record saying that he watches this stuff in his head, and Jesus put it there. And some folks tell me to take him seriously.

josh p's picture

Along those same lines (sex, pornography etc.) a simple google search will demonstrate he is far from sober minded.

Sean Fericks's picture

Darrell Post wrote:
I wonder how many other pastors would be able to stand in the spotlight, declare that Jesus puts pornographic videos into their heads, and come out with their reputations intact. Yes, Driscoll is on record saying that he watches this stuff in his head, and Jesus put it there. And some folks tell me to take him seriously.

Watched the clip and red the Pyro notes.  It appears that Driscoll was giving a seminar to ministry trainees, and that he does not discuss this stuff in front of his congregation.  Second, when taken in context, his visions are not pornographic.  They depict actual trumatic events that prompt him to confront and counsel.  The Bible itself can be fairly graphic when it comes to the female body, nasty situations, and violence.  Via Holy Scripture, God placed these situations in our minds in order to teach us and make us more like Him.  Whether or not you believe Driscoll's visions are valid, you have misrepresented his conversation.  You ought to repent of your slander toward a Brother.  If you doubt his visions, fine.  Tell me why you are a cessationist, and we can have a fruitful discussion.  When you slander him, you only reduce your own reputation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNC4FHR4XLA

Sean Fericks's picture

Let me clarify that I don't know a whole lot about Pastor Driscoll.  But when I hear bizarre charges from people like Darrell, I like to look them up.  The specific charge that Driscoll watches pornographic visions that Jesus puts in his head is spurious.  To the OP, the idea that young Jesus made "mistakes" without "sin" is interesting and worthy of discussion.  It certainly should not be the main topic, but it definitely should not separate brothers.

JC's picture

There is no doubt that there are out there unfairly 'gunning' for Mark Driscoll.  Warren Throckmorten is one of those.  

However, Driscoll has also given the web plenty of ammunition.  

To my mind, if Driscoll is genuine about serving the cause of Christ, he will focus on becoming a pastor and give up his repeated attempts at being a celebrity.

Darrell Post's picture

I have not mis-prepresented anything. I have nothing to repent of.

1. It matters not who Driscoll's audience was when he made these comments. One could even argue its worse that he said this stuff to students in training.

2. His "visions" are absolutely pornographic! He describes what he is seeing, giving step by step details of a woman's adulterous encounter such that without question he is "seeing stuff" as he says it, that normally can only be seen if you are watching something that no Christian should ever be watching.

3. I have not at all mis-represented his conversation, because when asked how he could "see" all this, he identifies the source: Jesus. He said this, not me.

4. I have not at all slandered Mr. Driscoll, but simply provided a link and summarized what he claimed he was receiving from Jesus. I linked to the article that was provided by Phil Johnson, someone with a much larger reputation than I have, and to my knowledge, he has not repented for his words in this article, nor has he been called to do so that I know of. Johnson provided the full transcript of Driscoll's troubling claims.

5. I am not "out to get him" but rather, it seems to me at least, that Driscoll, with all his public statements like the one above and many others if you google them, is out to get himself.

6. The fact that you call my charges "bizarre" is particularly ironic, considering the statements Driscoll made. His comments are perhaps the most bizarre I have ever heard from someone who holds the office of pastor. I have been in church since diapers, and through Bible college and seminary, having now heard hundreds and hundreds of sermons and I have never once heard anyone say stuff like this...well, once I heard Jack Hyles come close to saying stuff like this, but that's it. As I look at preachers from church history, nothing like this. But now you ask me to consider that Jesus puts these images into the mind of Driscoll? He said it was just like watching TV...and Jesus put it into his head?

Darrell Post's picture

"Via Holy Scripture, God placed these situations in our minds in order to teach us and make us more like Him."

Nowhere in Scripture does the Bible give a step by step detailed account of a woman's adulterous encounter.

Jay's picture

The Pornographic Divination TeamPyro blogpost was covered on SI a couple years back.

I don't think Driscoll gets off as easily as Sean would like him to.  First off, Mark himself says:

Upon occasion when I get up to preach I'll see—just like a screen in front of me—I'll see somebody get raped or abused and then I'll track 'em down and say, "Look I had this vision. Let me tell you about it."...

She was walking by and I just saw it. It was like a TV...

or

Upon occasion when I get up to preach I'll see—just like a screen in front of me—I'll see somebody get raped or abused and then I'll track 'em down and say, "Look I had this vision. Let me tell you about it." All true. One I had—I was sitting in my office at the old, uh, Earl Building. This gal walks by. Nice gal, member of the church. This is when the church was small. And it's just like a TV was there and I saw the night before her husband threw her up against the wall, had her by the throat, was physically violent with her. 

And she said, "That's it, I'm telling the pastors." 

And he said, "If you do I'll kill you." He was a very physically abusive man. 

She was walking by and I just saw it. It was like a TV. And I said, "Hey, come here for a second." I said, "Last night did your husband throw you up against the wall and have you by the throat, physically assault you and tell you if you told anyone he would kill you?" 

And she just starts bawling. She says, "How did you know?" 

I said, "Jesus told me." 

Phil Johnson explicitly states that this was in the "Christus Victor" message preached at Mars Hill Church; I would link to it directly, but the link is no longer valid.  In any case, I don't think that it was in the context of a ministry training program.  Even if it was - is this kind of behavior is normal and expected for ministers of the gospel?  Is this how you want your pastors to believe and act?

Furthermore, the divination is just one of a whole host of issues.  The divisions of the church into unnecessary sectors in his book, the obsession with sex in general that continues to manifest itself in his preaching and books, the best seller chichanery with ResultSource, the management structure of Mars Hill, the weird and unexplained decisions about money at Mars Hill, particularly with the Mars Hill Global Fund program, the anger and pugnacious behavior in Driscoll's life - all of this is a part of the story as well.  If you don't believe me, and you don't believe Warren Throckmorton, and you don't believe Janet Mefferd, and you don't believe the various Mars Hill refugees, then I can't help you.

"Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses." - 2 Cor. 13:1

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells

TylerR's picture

Editor

Sean Fericks wrote:

If you doubt his visions, fine.  Tell me why you are a cessationist, and we can have a fruitful discussion.  When you slander him, you only reduce your own reputation.

I had a vision myself . . . Jesus told me, just now, that Driscoll is a fraud. It was like a TV screen!

Because it's purely subjective, you can't tell me I'm wrong. You'll only slander your own reputation in the process and denigrate my own experience. Don't doubt my vision . . . 

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and an Investigations Manager with a Washington State agency. He's the author of the book What's It Mean to Be a Baptist?

dmicah's picture

Sean is right about the OP. The topic is very interesting. Probably falls under Paul's advice about not wasting time on silly arguments, but it's still interesting. Whether a pastor should attempt such a cursory exploration on a tangential issue in the middle of a sermon is a different argument. Seems like a blog series or some other venue might make better sense. It's only connection to the faith is the humanizing of Jesus. In fact, it seems simple and obvious that Jesus would have made "mistakes" in the same trial and error sense all humans do as they grow and learn. For instance, did he ever stumble as a toddler? Well, sure. To jump to the conclusion that a discussion on this is blasphemy is outlandish.

However, Sean is dead wrong about defending Driscoll as a pastor who stands to take the heat. The myriad of problems he has created for himself have nothing to do with this unguarded argument about Jesus' alleged mistakes. It is a red herring to say that "we all make mistakes" and "any of us could be disqualified for ministry".This is not factual and should not be used to support a so-called ministry leader who has abused his position so blatantly.

It is not slander to point out the sins of a man who opens himself up to celebrity pastor status. You're either on the national stage or you're not. His self-promotion put him there, so he's open game. Religious hypocrites were a target of Jesus's ire, and they should garner our negative attention as well. The idea that people are unfairly gunning for him is refuse. People don't like when their bully heroes are called out. Fortunately with blogs and internet, the opportunities to bring the behavior of bully pastors to light is better than ever. Instead of defending him, put forth a cogent argument why unwarranted firings of pastors, alienation of multitudes of elders and volunteers who dare ask questions, veiled threats of violence from the pulpit, constant chauvinism, using church funds to surreptitiously place his book on a best seller list, outbursts of anger are good for the body of Christ. Don't tell me why the accusers are mistaken, tell me why the accused is right.

Paul J. Scharf's picture

Micah,

I stand by my charge above that Driscoll's sermon is blasphemous. Not because he is having the discussion about Jesus' human growth process, but because (by his own admission) he misunderstands, and thus misrepresents, the Person of Christ and the union of His Divine and human natures.

It was just as blasphemous, by the way, when an IFB "evangelist" I once heard boldly proclaimed that he didn't care if we "don't understand the hyperstatic union..."

As someone said, "This IS brain surgery..." Hackers need not apply. Driscoll should sit in the corner and listen and learn until he is mature enough to speak.

Church Ministries Representative for the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

dmicah's picture

Paul, you'll note I'm not a Driscoll defender. I just can't see where he is rising to blasphemy in the video. His doctrine is fairly straightforward reformed. (obviously what he said wasn't well received even by his people, because they edited it from the posted sermon. I'm still with you on it being a problematic discussion.) Regardless, the hypostatic union is not a buttoned up doctrine. It's quite the mystery.

Honestly, there is much more to take him to task over than this unguarded exploration.

Paul J. Scharf's picture

We cannot understand completely the mysteries of the Incarnation. But it is our duty to convey that which the Scriptures do present in a way that is entirely accurate and true to them and honoring to Him.

Driscoll violated both the letter and the spirit of this principle. What does it tell you that he begins this section by saying, "This might be heresy..."?! What responsible Bible teacher would say that - not as a joke - but actually meaning it?!

Why would he pick such an odd and delicate topic to illustrate a point so simple that anybody who is awake could understand it? Also, does he not come across to you, if you watch the video, as somewhat making fun of Christ?

The whole thing is bizarre, stupid, infantile, childish and ridiculous. Yes, I would also call it blasphemous.

I must have been born at the wrong time. I will stick with Walvoord. Anyone who wants Driscoll can have my share - though I would not recommend it.

Church Ministries Representative for the Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry

Huw's picture

Driscoll is a false teacher, a blind guide and a hireling. 

Jay's picture

Per Warren Throckmorton:

Opposing Views’ writer Michael Allen posted an article last night which discusses Mars Hill’s ambivalent reaction to the “Jesus Makes Mistakes” segment of Mark Driscoll’s sermon on Acts 6:1-7. Preached publicly on May 4, the sermon featured Driscoll’s speculations about the boyhood of Jesus had he rode a bike, or played baseball. Mars Hill edited the section but then stood by the content. The church leaders also said the editing was nothing unusual even though the edits made the video shorter than any other video in the series. Former Mars Hill Media Team members also contested the official explanation of the edits. After defending the content, Mars Hill issued a copyright complaint with YouTube who acted again me to remove the video clip.  An account of the situation and a transcript of the segment was posted here on May 19.

From - http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2014/06/14/20407/

I find it interesting that MHC filed a complaint with YouTube over the video that Throckmorton linked to on his blog.  

Direct video link - http://www.opposingviews.com/i/religion/christianity/megachurch-tries-sc...

"Our task today is to tell people — who no longer know what sin is...no longer see themselves as sinners, and no longer have room for these categories — that Christ died for sins of which they do not think they’re guilty." - David Wells