3 Bad Reasons to Leave Your Church
“Conscience” keeps getting tossed around. In relation to music, my experience is that people’s conscience is little more than an uneasy feeling because they are unfamiliar with the music being played/sung. I would have to ask, what is supposed to form and influence our conscience? Scripture! We don’t need an extra-biblical guide since “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” My psychic feelings about something do not mean anything if they aren’t directed by and in line with Scripture.
[Larry Nelson]One example (which I’ve mentioned on SI before): I witnessed over a thousand people joyously, triumphantly singing “This is Amazing Grace” [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjXjkbODrro] together in a church service last summer. Were they somehow deluded in their singing of this song? Would God have been more honored if they had been singing John Newton’s “Amazing Grace” instead? (I personally don’t believe for one second that God was at all being dishonored. To even begin thinking that, I’d have to first rip Psalm 150 out of my Bibles.)
It reminds me of what I heard from 7,000 people singing “Behold Our God” at T4G a few years back (https://youtu.be/0djzIw6foYc)
[Darrell Post]The church would be far healthier if it modeled the New Testament church and limited music to an after-thought,
This would be convenient, if only the NT model would allow us to limit our music as an afterthought. It just doesn’t seem to be what God wants us to do with music.
With that said, I think that heaven will be a shock for many. I have a feeling that a lot of Christians will be disappointed trying to figure out where all the “old-time religion” songs are being sung. They are going to find quickly that they will be signing along side everyone else in Heaven.
[dgszweda]It reminds me of what I heard from 7,000 people singing “Behold Our God” at T4G a few years back (https://youtu.be/0djzIw6foYc)
A small taste of what praise in Heaven will sound like!
[dgszweda]Darrell Post wrote:
The church would be far healthier if it modeled the New Testament church and limited music to an after-thought,
This would be convenient, if only the NT model would allow us to limit our music as an afterthought. It just doesn’t seem to be what God wants us to do with music.
With that said, I think that heaven will be a shock for many. I have a feeling that a lot of Christians will be disappointed trying to figure out where all the “old-time religion” songs are being sung. They are going to find quickly that they will be signing along side everyone else in Heaven.
Did you read my comments? I made the case that the NT does suggest corporate music among assembled believers to be more or less an after-thought. It is clear that the early church was far more interested in their corporate time being spent on doctrine, fellowship, communion, reading of Scripture and prayer. There was all kinds of space in the NT for instruction on music in the life of the church. The NT writers instead spent time talking about things that were more important. All there really is, is that passing mention in Eph and Col. And those verses seem to suggest vocal activity versus instrumental. Where do you find NT support to hold up your estimation of what you believe God wants us to do with corporate music?
It is worth noting that the “old time religion” songs are really mostly 150 years old or less, and most of those “camp meeting” songs feature harmonies that are guaranteed to bore any competent tenor or bass to tears. F F F F C C C C on the bass line, rinse and repeat, UGH.
Regarding the relative positions of music and teaching, see 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Thessalonians 5, as well as Ephesians 5:19. Music is supposed to be an important part of teaching. Now I see a place for debating the qualities of music—its setting, its poetry, its doctrine, and the like—but the place of music in the church ought to be indisputable. For that matter, if music were an afterthought, why are large portions of the Scriptures written in lyric, poetic form? Reality is that well-written poetry speaks to hearts and minds in a different way than does prose.
For that matter—might as well stir things up here—I think that a HUGE part of the problem the church as a whole has with our culture as a whole with our culture’s comfort with prose and lack of poetry. Hence we simply don’t know how to differentiate a good song from mediocre anymore.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Darrell,
I just don’t think it is an afterthought. We have an entire book of the Bible (the largest) dedicated to singing. There is enough in the NT to indicate that it was important. I don’t think that Christ leading his disciples in a hymn after communion was an afterthought or something unique to just that situation. Looking at Revelation we have a good picture that signing will play an important part in Heaven. I am not arguing that it should play a prominence over spending time in the Word, just that I don’t think it was an afterthought, or something that is just added when it is convenience.
Darrell, do you really think that any one here is advocating stage jumping in a corporate worship setting? What do you mean by underdressed and jiving with an instrument? Does this mean wearing jeans and a nice shirt or does this mean ripped jeans and a dirty t-shirt? Does jiving to an instrument mean moving a little with the rhythm of the song or does it mean mimicking the erotic stage presence of a Jimi Hendrix while playing the electric guitar?
“So I am sorry if I am not sympathetic to the view that one group of believers in a church has the right to trample the consciences of other believers in a church with their demands to do whatever they want with instruments and call it worship music.”
To reverse your statement, do you and other like-minded believers have the right to trample the consciences of other believers in a church with your demands to only do hymns or music without much instrumentation?
Also, would you be willing to deny yourself for the good of your brother, in my neighborhood, with black urban gospel or utilizing hip-hop to teach the attributes of God http://lyrics.wikia.com/Shai_Linne:The_Attributes_Of_God_%282011%29 rather than your preferences?
[Bert Perry]Hence we simply don’t know how to differentiate a good song from mediocre anymore.
It’s worthwhile to acknowledge that the harshest critics of CCM have a valid point in charging that much of CCM is vapid, simplistic, forgettable, regrettable, or whatever their adjective du jour may be…
For every “In Christ Alone” there are countless songs that will soon fade into oblivion…
But then the same is (and always was) true of “traditional” hymnody. Reading the biographies of hymn writers from past centuries leads one to wonder why [Insert name of hymn writer here] is credited with writing 600 hymns during his or her lifetime, but only 25 of them seem to be extant (or at least are easily or commonly found in today’s hymnals)…
It’s because time has allowed only the “cream of the crop” to endure…
Bert, the references to music in 1 Cor 14 by Paul were the mentions of instruments as an illustration of other points. He wasn’t teaching on the use of instruments in corporate worship. I am not sure what instruction you are finding in 1 Thess. 5.
As to the Ephesians passage, I fail to see in this verse how Paul is making the point that music is an important part of teaching. A part, yes, but if it was an important part, then why no mention of music in the list of things that should happen when the church assembles together (teaching, prayer, Scripture, prayer and communion)? It would have been so easy to write in singing, if the NT writer felt it was that important. Again, I am not saying music has no role in the life of the assembled church, I am saying that as practiced by the evangelical church in America, it has been given way too large a role. I suspect the reason for this imbalance is people enjoy it (the 30 minutes concert), and it helps draw crowds. But that doesn’t mean its healthy for the church, especially when Scripture, prayer, and doctrine are squeezed out. And just for the record, I am not one who rejects all new songs out of hand, nor am I blind to the many 19th-20th century church songs with poor lyrics and less than compelling tunes. Only a few songs from each generation survive for posterity. Most are here today, forgotten tomorrow.
[dgszweda]Darrell,
I just don’t think it is an afterthought. We have an entire book of the Bible (the largest) dedicated to singing. There is enough in the NT to indicate that it was important. I don’t think that Christ leading his disciples in a hymn after communion was an afterthought or something unique to just that situation. Looking at Revelation we have a good picture that signing will play an important part in Heaven. I am not arguing that it should play a prominence over spending time in the Word, just that I don’t think it was an afterthought, or something that is just added when it is convenience.
I challenge you to go through the NT, as I have, and note every single musical reference. Music is clearly not on the forefront of thought of the NT writers. I agreed with and affirmed the point that the OT is musical. No question. But again, we are talking about the church age, and the specific question of what the assembled church does. “They sang a hymn and went out” after communion is sort of an after-thought. It was not at all the main point of the last supper. And yes, I agree that Revelation shows tremendous examples of music in eternity, which again, is not the church age, and so that is outside the scope of the discussion. I am heartened to read that you don’t believe music should have prominence over the Word of God. But as one reads through the NT, think of all the episodes where, if they happened in the context of American evangelicalism, the narratives would have played out differently. Imagine the transfiguration. Instead of Peter asking to build three shrines, he would have asked to break out the guitars and drums and bang out a celebratory song about seeing Moses and Elijah. Again, my overall point is we are culture entertaining itself to death. We fear being alone with our thoughts for even a few minutes without having some form of entertainment fill our minds…and this is reflected in our time assembled together as believers. We are not content to hear our pastor lead in prayer, and, horror of horrors, pray uninterrupted for 10 minutes or more. No, we would rather watch a musical concert. I realize there are varying degrees of musical emphasis out there, but if someone parachuted in from another galaxy, and first attended an evangelical church, watched the 35 minute musical concert, then heard the 2 minute prayer, and then the 20 minute sermonette, and watched everyone leave and go home afterward, that alien would then read the NT expecting to find church life to be largely about music, and not so much about teaching and prayer.
I would agree that music in the life of the assembled church doesn’t seem like an after-thought, if I consider what we do, but if I evaluate based on what the NT writers prescribed for the life of a healthy church, then it does shrink considerably in relative importance.
I don’t know how popular Shai Linne is among urban youth, but it does strike me that his poetry at least recovers the notion of meter and rhyme. Hopefully my appreciation of his work doesn’t ruin his “cred” among those shepherded by Joel. :^)
Darrell, verse 26 in 1 Cor. 14. Everyone has a “psalm”. Kind of music that they would sing. Now yes, the general tenor of that passage is to discourage untranslated tongues, but if lots of people are coming to church with a psalm to sing….do the math, Darrell. The disciples sung a Psalm after leaving the Seder. We are told to sing to one another in Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. The assembled saints sing a song to the Lamb in revelation.
Gonna have to suggest to you that, as great portions of Scripture are written in poetic form, we’re poetic/musical critters. That’s a good thing.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
“To reverse your statement, do you and other like-minded believers have the right to trample the consciences of other believers in a church with your demands to only do hymns or music without much instrumentation?”
Of course the issue here is corporate participation. I am not asking them to do something that violates their conscience. I am also not demanding that anyone do only hymns. Everyone has all week to listen to music as their consciences dictate, but when the church assembles together, the desire for unity should prompt everyone to defer to the other, resulting in no one’s conscience being violated. Does it really violate someone’s conscience if they leave their drum-set home? Really? They feel that they will not be right with God unless they bring their set of drums to church and beat on them while everyone sings?
[Bert Perry]I don’t know how popular Shai Linne is among urban youth, but it does strike me that his poetry at least recovers the notion of meter and rhyme. Hopefully my appreciation of his work doesn’t ruin his “cred” among those shepherded by Joel. :^)
Darrell, verse 26 in 1 Cor. 14. Everyone has a “psalm”. Kind of music that they would sing. Now yes, the general tenor of that passage is to discourage untranslated tongues, but if lots of people are coming to church with a psalm to sing….do the math, Darrell. The disciples sung a Psalm after leaving the Seder. We are told to sing to one another in Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. The assembled saints sing a song to the Lamb in revelation.
Gonna have to suggest to you that, as great portions of Scripture are written in poetic form, we’re poetic/musical critters. That’s a good thing.
Again, I am not saying we are not poetical or musical. These facts are obvious. I am talking about what is healthy for the assembled church. The things the NT writers chose to emphasize was Doctrine, prayer, communion, fellowship and Reading of Scripture. They easily could have put singing in there if they felt it was equal with the others. Again, the singing the song to the Lamb is after the church age.
Darrrell, you’re kind of drIving the discussion into a music debate. And perhaps this is a good illustration of this man’s point.
Some matters of conscience, you should probably leave over. Other matters, you can live with.
For example, if you in your conscience are sinning by singing “in Christ Alone” accompanied by an orchestra that includes drums (which I did just yesterday), then perhaps you should leave that church.
If you cannot peacefully disagree with and still respect and learn from the leadership of that church because of such music, you should probably just leave.
Instead of harboring scorn and undermining the leadership and unity and effectiveness of that ministry.
And for example, if the church uses real wine at communion, and you don’t prefer wine use, but you don’t care that much about it, then you should probably stay.
Discussion