Did God choose you at the time you believed in Jesus, or before?

This is still the definitive book on this subject (in my mind).

The Death of Death in the Death of Christ - John Owen

I find difficulty with some of the thoughts that Dave has expressed but as one who tends to be a reader rather than poster I honestly don’t have the time to engage in a long drawn out conversation that has happened on this site numerous times before.

However, I did have a quick observation regarding the article …

As one who doesn’t hold to a “hard-line” Calvinist position, it appears to me that too often and too easily those of a Calvinist persuasion see any mention in Scripture of election, choice, predestination, etc. and regardless of the context or possible variations of interpretation, just assume that it is talking of salvation and eternal destiny, and then run with it. Take the reference to Romans 9 in the article for example …

I am far from a theological Einstein, however, as do many others, I can recognise that Romans 9-11 is a complex passage to interpret and apply. As I would suggest occurs quite regularly amongst similar circles, the article’s author references Rom 9:11-13 in the discussion of the timing of election to saving faith. However, if you closely consider this passage, I would suggest that saving faith may not be the intended focus of this verse.

In Gen 25:22-23, it is overwhelmingly clear that the prophetic word that God is giving relates to the nations that will descend from each of Rebekah’s twins. This prophecy did not relate to personal salvation, but rather God’s sovereign working in the rise and fall of nations and the choice of a nation that would produce His holy Heir that would be the Saviour of mankind. No one would argue that in Gen 25 God is arguing for the individual salvation of Jacob and the rejection of Esau as an individual. Instead, the focus is on the destiny (i.e. choice/election) of nations in God’s sovereign plan.

Keeping this in mind, when reading in Rom 9 of the reference to God’s “purpose of election” and His “loving/hating” (which many argue again relates to choosing/rejecting), why would the context suddenly mean personal salvation when the original clear prophetic Word of God in Gen did not mean this? Is it possible that Paul is indeed speaking of election (God’s action of choosing) in order to see His sovereign ends accomplished, rather than election of individuals to salvation/damnation?

And then a couple of verses down Paul moves on to Pharaoh, who, without using the exact phrase, he infers is also “elected” according to God’s purposes in order that His name might be declared throughout the earth. Obviously there is no way that Pharaoh was elected to individual salvation, so what exactly is Paul going on about then?

Anyway, this obviously is part of the wider discussion of the passage, namely what exact point Paul is trying to make and specifically what he means whenever he mentions election. Thought it was worth highlighting for what it’s worth …

(Hope my ramblings made sense … it’s 12:31 AM local time …)