FBFI Annual Fellowship, Wednesday AM, June 17- A Liveblog Report
(Greg Linscott Reporting)
One of the benefits of this time thus far has been the friendship experiences. I have traveled from Minnesota with some good brothers in the Lord- BWM Missionary Roberto Coelho (supported by our church in Marshall), Pastor Todd Mitchell of First Baptist of Granite Falls, and Pastor Tim Barr of First Baptist of Adrian. I have made some other connections here too, including SI Blogrollers Scott Aniol and Bob Bixby, and SI members JP Hansen and Matt Olmstead. Our host here in the Chicago area has been SI member Chuck Hervas. He provided us with great opportunity for conversation that lasted well into the wee hours. It was a short night!
The general sessions on Wednesday proved quite profitable. Dr. John Hartog III of Faith Baptist Church in Cambridge, IA spoke on the “Gospel of God” from 1 Thessalonians 2, providing quality exegesis anchored in the text. The message Dr. Kevin Bauder of Central Seminary (MN) delivered defined and developed the significance of several terms crucial to the gospel, utilizing texts from Romans. Both sermons successfully remained on target and avoided even a cursory hint of the outside controversy that has developed here on SI and elsewhere in the blogosphere. A few more details are available @ sifilings on Twitter, as are some observations from Evangelist Wayne Van Gelderen’s workshop session “Factors Hindering Evangelism in Fundamentalism.”
We will have more details and reflections as the day moves on.
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(Matt Olmstead Reporting)
Seeing Lives Transformed by the Gospel - Jeff Musgrave
Summary from the conference booklet: Jesus is the answer for transformed living, and discipleship is the method that He designed to accomplish getting men to Him. We often say, “This is about a relationship with God, not a religion,” but are we effectively introducing men to God and showing them how to live in a vibrant relationship with Him?
Summary of the workshop: The session was an parred down presentation of The Exchange, Musgrave’s discipleship ministry.
Musgrave argued that there is a circle of ministry that needs to take place in our churches. An individual, once saved, ought to be discipled and trained into ministry (Saved - Discipled - Trained into ministry). His remarks evidenced both his burden for evangelism (his used the term ‘soul-winning’) and his passion for training others to disciple.
Below is a summary outline of the content of the session, which is his the outline he uses to present the gospel to an unsaved person.
I. The Gift of the Exchange
A. God is a Divine Person (he is knowable)
Presentation of who God is and how he looks at sin. God is holy and cannot tolerate sin, just and cannot overlook sin, loving and has provided a gift to me (the sinner), and gracious, offering salvation as a gift.
B. The lost man has a need.
This need is internal; man also has internal evidence of God, who makes divine appointments for the unsaved.
C. I have a regenerated spirit.
When we are saved, we realize the futility of my self (using his alliterated points), the fulness of my savior, the finality of my surrender, the filling of the Spirit, and the fruitfulness of my service
II. The Process of the Exchange
A. The Model - Acts 11:19-26
Musgrave sees four elements of discipleship in this passage. Conversation—we reason with the lost; evangelization—we give them the gospel; the assimilation—the saved need to be brought into the fellowship, but slowly. we cannot expect them to grow immediately. We need to be willing to take the “food” to them. Finally, indoctrination, training them up in the faith.
B. The Method - II Timothy 2:1-2; 25-26
- 16 views
Musgrave’s church website gives more information on the ministry he presented in his workshop.
Father of three, husband of one, servant of the Lord Jesus Christ. I blog at mattolmstead.com.
As a first-time attender at an FBFI gathering, I suspect I have received a rather strong dose of the Fundamentalism Being Saved. Having never been exposed to Fundamentalism outside of Minnesota (and for that matter, really knowing little about Fundamentalism outside of Fourth Baptist Church/Central Baptist Theological Seminary), it has been quite an eye-opener. Since I attended a breakout session that Pastor Greg Linscott missed (and for an even more important reason, as you will see), I’ll chip in by sharing it here to the best of my ability.
Having heard high praise from the podium about Robert Congdon’s presentation on the Emergent Church, I decided to attend. Arriving early, I sat down and listened to the light conversation that preceded the session. It is worth mentioning because it might help you evaluate Mr. Congdon’s credibility. He said, “Technically, what I’m about to say is illegal.” I inquired what he meant, and he explained that even to quote John 14:6 is illegal. When I asked what law he would violate, he said that it would be “incitement.” As a former cop, I can tell you with confidence that this is absurd.
The thesis of Mr. Congdon’s presentation was that “Emergents, New Calvinists, Neo-Calvinists, Inter-Faith movements, the Insider movement, the non-Emergent Emergents, and others” are “tied into a single movement toward a worldwide government and worldwide union of religions.”
For the rest of his presentation, Mr. Congdon treated these groups as one. He explained that they offer young people an alternative to the shallow teaching and “couch-potato” Christianity that has driven them away from other churches. They prefer preaching from the gospels, but ignore the epistles and the book of Revelation, believing that the things in the book of Revelation have already happened.
Mr. Congdon showed a picture of a windmill with each fan blade labeled in turn: New Calvinism, Emergents, Post-Moderns, and one other group I didn’t catch. He said that we must not tilt at the windmill, but go after the real problem. He gave the example of hair length and music. “We lost the battle on those,” he explained, because the real issues weren’t addressed. What is the real issue today? “Kingdom-Now.”
Kingdom-Now, he explained, is the belief that the Kingdom exists today. He said that Post-Millenialism and Amillenialism have merged so that you can’t tell them apart anymore. Now, his teaching was a bit dilatory, so what follows might seem a bit disjointed. He explained that 100 years ago he could have gotten along fine with a Reformed theologian, but things have changed. What caused the change? The formation of the State of Israel in 1948. This created a problem for the Reformed theologians, he explained, because they never thought there was a future for Israel. Somewhere in here he pointed out that the reason Christianity has declined in England is because Martin Lloyd-Jones mounted an attack on Premillenialism. These teachers aid Satan, he explains:
Now we get to the really fantastic part, the part where he connects John Piper with environmentalists, the European Union, and One-World Government. All of these Kingdom-Now teachers appeal to today’s youth, who have a “social conscience,” by addressing environmental concerns. This is just what the European Union wants, he explained, because the European Union decided that the way to take over the world is with environmental and economic issues. I can’t remember just how Rick Warren and Tony Blair factor into this, but somehow they do. Anyhow, Satan is using McLaren, Piper, et al to lure unsuspecting youths into the snares of the EU with the appeal of environmental responsibility, and this will usher in One-World Government.
After the presentation I approached Mr. Congdon and asked, “Do you know what John Piper says about the future salvation, upon the return of Christ, of all people alive on earth with Jewish blood in their veins?” He said that he was “still digging” and did not know, but “assumed” Piper denied it. I informed him that in fact John Piper teaches that at the return of Christ, every single ethnic Israelite alive will be saved. He instantly offered some explanation that had to do with Charismatic leanings and using this for their purposes, but I confess it was beyond my powers of comprehension.
I was surprised by how much Mr. Congdon singled out John Piper and “New Calvinism” in this presentation (which was on the Emergent Church, right?). But what astonished me even more than this singularly ill-informed, illogical, and potentially slanderous (or even libelous — there was a handout) attack on John Piper was how it fit so seamlessly into the FBFI Annual Conference. It did not make a splash, not even a ripple.
I am not a member of the FBFI, nor do I now have any intention to join. In addition to this episode, their preferred song leader, the staff evangelist for BJU, turned the podium into a circus ring, and in the men’s luncheon challenge first blamed us for declining Christian College enrollments, accusing us of not preaching the need for Christian College from the pulpits, then cracked the following joke: “Do you know the difference between a Nazi and a music major? About 45 degrees!” He demonstrated by holding up his hand in a stiff-arm Nazi salute, then drooping his wrist to ape a homosexual. This drew a roar of laughter from most of the pastors present.
So no, I have no intention to join the FBFI at this point. Therefore, I am not calling on the FBFI for any particular response. However, if the FBFI sweeps this under the rug, they are complicit in Mr. Congdon’s ongoing offense. It is that very complicity that I, as a registered attender, seek to avoid by publishing this.
Todd Mitchell, Pastor
First Baptist Church, Granite Falls, MN
http://www.firstbaptistgranitefalls.org
Having heard high praise from the podium about Robert Congdon’s presentation on the Emergent Church, I decided to attend. Arriving early, I sat down and listened to the light conversation that preceded the session. It is worth mentioning because it might help you evaluate Mr. Congdon’s credibility. He said, “Technically, what I’m about to say is illegal.” I inquired what he meant, and he explained that even to quote John 14:6 is illegal. When I asked what law he would violate, he said that it would be “incitement.” As a former cop, I can tell you with confidence that this is absurd.
The thesis of Mr. Congdon’s presentation was that “Emergents, New Calvinists, Neo-Calvinists, Inter-Faith movements, the Insider movement, the non-Emergent Emergents, and others” are “tied into a single movement toward a worldwide government and worldwide union of religions.”
For the rest of his presentation, Mr. Congdon treated these groups as one. He explained that they offer young people an alternative to the shallow teaching and “couch-potato” Christianity that has driven them away from other churches. They prefer preaching from the gospels, but ignore the epistles and the book of Revelation, believing that the things in the book of Revelation have already happened.
Mr. Congdon showed a picture of a windmill with each fan blade labeled in turn: New Calvinism, Emergents, Post-Moderns, and one other group I didn’t catch. He said that we must not tilt at the windmill, but go after the real problem. He gave the example of hair length and music. “We lost the battle on those,” he explained, because the real issues weren’t addressed. What is the real issue today? “Kingdom-Now.”
Kingdom-Now, he explained, is the belief that the Kingdom exists today. He said that Post-Millenialism and Amillenialism have merged so that you can’t tell them apart anymore. Now, his teaching was a bit dilatory, so what follows might seem a bit disjointed. He explained that 100 years ago he could have gotten along fine with a Reformed theologian, but things have changed. What caused the change? The formation of the State of Israel in 1948. This created a problem for the Reformed theologians, he explained, because they never thought there was a future for Israel. Somewhere in here he pointed out that the reason Christianity has declined in England is because Martin Lloyd-Jones mounted an attack on Premillenialism. These teachers aid Satan, he explains:
When individuals receive Christ, Satan strives to hinder their spiritual growth and understanding of their future role. He is aided by false teachers who deny a future, literal kingdom. This teaching is one of the driving force [sic] leading to apostasy in the Church in the Last Days.Mr. Congdon quoted “Emergent” Brian McLaren, then “New-Calvinist” John Piper, on the kingdom. He said this appeals to our youth, and said, “These guys have the appearance of godliness … “
Now we get to the really fantastic part, the part where he connects John Piper with environmentalists, the European Union, and One-World Government. All of these Kingdom-Now teachers appeal to today’s youth, who have a “social conscience,” by addressing environmental concerns. This is just what the European Union wants, he explained, because the European Union decided that the way to take over the world is with environmental and economic issues. I can’t remember just how Rick Warren and Tony Blair factor into this, but somehow they do. Anyhow, Satan is using McLaren, Piper, et al to lure unsuspecting youths into the snares of the EU with the appeal of environmental responsibility, and this will usher in One-World Government.
After the presentation I approached Mr. Congdon and asked, “Do you know what John Piper says about the future salvation, upon the return of Christ, of all people alive on earth with Jewish blood in their veins?” He said that he was “still digging” and did not know, but “assumed” Piper denied it. I informed him that in fact John Piper teaches that at the return of Christ, every single ethnic Israelite alive will be saved. He instantly offered some explanation that had to do with Charismatic leanings and using this for their purposes, but I confess it was beyond my powers of comprehension.
I was surprised by how much Mr. Congdon singled out John Piper and “New Calvinism” in this presentation (which was on the Emergent Church, right?). But what astonished me even more than this singularly ill-informed, illogical, and potentially slanderous (or even libelous — there was a handout) attack on John Piper was how it fit so seamlessly into the FBFI Annual Conference. It did not make a splash, not even a ripple.
I am not a member of the FBFI, nor do I now have any intention to join. In addition to this episode, their preferred song leader, the staff evangelist for BJU, turned the podium into a circus ring, and in the men’s luncheon challenge first blamed us for declining Christian College enrollments, accusing us of not preaching the need for Christian College from the pulpits, then cracked the following joke: “Do you know the difference between a Nazi and a music major? About 45 degrees!” He demonstrated by holding up his hand in a stiff-arm Nazi salute, then drooping his wrist to ape a homosexual. This drew a roar of laughter from most of the pastors present.
So no, I have no intention to join the FBFI at this point. Therefore, I am not calling on the FBFI for any particular response. However, if the FBFI sweeps this under the rug, they are complicit in Mr. Congdon’s ongoing offense. It is that very complicity that I, as a registered attender, seek to avoid by publishing this.
Todd Mitchell, Pastor
First Baptist Church, Granite Falls, MN
http://www.firstbaptistgranitefalls.org
[Todd Mitchell]It appears Mr. Congdon has either failed in his research, or he is badly misrepresenting others’ views.
Kingdom-Now, he explained, is the belief that the Kingdom exists today. He said that Post-Millenialism and Amillenialism have merged so that you can’t tell them apart anymore. Now, his teaching was a bit dilatory, so what follows might seem a bit disjointed. He explained that 100 years ago he could have gotten along fine with a Reformed theologian, but things have changed. What caused the change? The formation of the State of Israel in 1948. This created a problem for the Reformed theologians, he explained, because they never thought there was a future for Israel. Somewhere in here he pointed out that the reason Christianity has declined in England is because Martin Lloyd-Jones mounted an attack on Premillenialism …
Mr. Congdon quoted “Emergent” Brian McLaren, then “New-Calvinist” John Piper, on the kingdom. He said this appeals to our youth, and said, “These guys have the appearance of godliness … “
Now we get to the really fantastic part, the part where he connects John Piper with environmentalists, the European Union, and One-World Government. All of these Kingdom-Now teachers appeal to today’s youth, who have a “social conscience,” by addressing environmental concerns. This is just what the European Union wants, he explained, because the European Union decided that the way to take over the world is with environmental and economic issues. I can’t remember just how Rick Warren and Tony Blair factor into this, but somehow they do. Anyhow, Satan is using McLaren, Piper, et al to lure unsuspecting youths into the snares of the EU with the appeal of environmental responsibility, and this will usher in One-World Government.
After the presentation I approached Mr. Congdon and asked, “Do you know what John Piper says about the future salvation, upon the return of Christ, of all people alive on earth with Jewish blood in their veins?” He said that he was “still digging” and did not know, but “assumed” Piper denied it. I informed him that in fact John Piper teaches that at the return of Christ, every single ethnic Israelite alive will be saved. He instantly offered some explanation that had to do with Charismatic leanings and using this for their purposes, but I confess it was beyond my powers of comprehension.
John Piper is a premillennialist who believes in a future kingdom, and the spiritual restoration of Israel. He is post-trib (like Spurgeon); but he is a premillennialist. See here: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/TopicIndex/29_End_Times__Ret…, and here: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1987/1493_De…
Shoddy research or mischaracterization quickly destroys a fundamentalist’s (and an association’s) credibility.
Ken Fields
Thanks for the insight. What a convoluted mess.
An example of a fundamentalism not worth saving!
Todd,
I laughed and then I cried. Oliver Stone can’t hold a candle to this man with conspiracy theories. What a bizzare hour that must have been for you.
I laughed and then I cried. Oliver Stone can’t hold a candle to this man with conspiracy theories. What a bizzare hour that must have been for you.
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
In case you’re wondering who Robert Congdon is: http://www.internetbibleinstitute.com/
Interesting to note his top 20 book recommendations: http://www.internetbibleinstitute.com/library/cardfile.htm
Unfortunately, there’s not much bio info.
Interesting to note his top 20 book recommendations: http://www.internetbibleinstitute.com/library/cardfile.htm
Unfortunately, there’s not much bio info.
[BryanBice] In case you’re wondering who Robert Congdon is: http://www.internetbibleinstitute.com/According to Congdon’s website, his “Board of Reference” includes some interesting dispy names: http://www.internetbibleinstitute.com/CMI/cmiinfo.htm
Interesting to note his top 20 book recommendations: http://www.internetbibleinstitute.com/library/cardfile.htm
Unfortunately, there’s not much bio info.
Do these men subscribe to Congdon’s character misrepresentations and aberrant conspiracy theories?
Dr. Stephen Boreland - Pastor, Ballyclare Baptist Church, Northern Ireland
Pastor Tim Heijermans - Pastor, Christian Community Church, Luxembourg
Dr. Tommy Ice - Bible teacher, author, Pre-Trib Study Group, Virginia, USA
Pastor Steve Schroeder - Pastor, New Life Baptist Church, Aurora, Illinois, USA
Dr. Bill Schroeder - Assistant Pastor, New Life Baptist Church, Aurora, Illinois, USA
Dr. Renald Showers - Bible teacher, author, The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc.
Dr. Dale Steenhoven - Pastor, Will County Baptist Church, Joliet, Illinois, USA
Dr. John Whitcomb - Bible teacher, author, Whitcomb Ministries, Inc.
Ken Fields
After reviewing Cogdon’s site, I am left with many questions. Here is one. Why is the FBFI having a man do a workshop who may be a Fundamentalist, but preaches at conferences with known Evangelicals like Jimmy DeYoung? Or more pointedly, why is it wrong for YF to go hear Dever, et. al. preach but it is OK for FBFI workshop speakers to preach with CE’s?
Roger Carlson, Pastor Berean Baptist Church
It seems Mr. Congdon is, in fact, a proponent of a “Dispensationalism Not Worth Saving.” By this, I mean a group that apparently cannot distinguish between Progressive Dispensationalists, Covenant Premillenialists, Amillennialists, Post-Millenialists, and various forms of non-Dispensational Premillennialists (i.e., Carson, Moo), ALL OF WHOM agree that the kingdom did come in some sense in the past, is coming now, and is still coming in other senses in the future.
Apparently, this worldwide conspiracy was shared by every single Christian recorded since Justin Martyr until John Darby, and by the vast majority thereafter. He is certainly shrewd to have uncovered such a widespread plot.
Apparently, this worldwide conspiracy was shared by every single Christian recorded since Justin Martyr until John Darby, and by the vast majority thereafter. He is certainly shrewd to have uncovered such a widespread plot.
My Blog: http://dearreaderblog.com
Cor meum tibi offero Domine prompte et sincere. ~ John Calvin
In my prior posts regarding the Sweatt v. Bauder Internet match I mentioned that the FBFI had little influence in overall Fundamentalism. It does appear to have some very good men who join. However it is easier to get an FBFI membership than a COSTCO membership and there is more inside that is needful and desirable at COSTCO. I joined the FBFI for one year and then let the membership drop after attending one regional meeting. The good men are coupled with many who represent churches that have shallow preaching and unbiblical perspectives. There also is often connection to the WWF’s( Wacko Windbag Fundamentalists). Robert Congdon is not a member of the FBFI but some people of FBFI influence must have thought enough of his ministry and ideas to invite him to the national meeting.
I would hope that any young Fundamentalists will understand the lack of visibility of the FBFI in most of the parts of the country. It is a wrongly organized group of individual Pastors and others in ministry. It is hanging on from the old Northern Baptist Fundamentalists who organized the group while still in the NBC. It should have dissolved when the CBFMS and then the CBA was formed. Here in Southern California they have five members representing three churches plus three stationed military chaplains. The churches represented are all under 100 and two may be less than 50. They have more representation in Northern California - about 30 men and less churches. The churches are all small. In Oregon they have 2 members and 14 in Washington. All from very small churches. So here on the West coast they are essentially an extremely small group representing a failed and shrinking type of Fundamentalism.
The latest Bauder v. Sweatt problem was essentially an Internet exchange that effected only those who wanted to get involved. One Internet blogger / stalker attempted to make a big issue out of the difference and put himself in it by calling for Bauder’s cancellation as a speaker. This was nothing but an extremist Fundamentalist exercising poor discernment and seeking to cause division,
The ideals of Biblical standards and practices that characterize the Christianity called Fundamentalism must be set apart from various groups and practices within Fundamentalism. Some groups may disappoint. That does not alter Biblical standards and practices. A young Fundamentalist may have good reason to leave a church or group. That does not abrogate their responsibility to uphold and seek out that which is Biblical.
So as an older guy, my advice to some others, who may be younger, is to get this FBFI brush up in perspective. It is revealing of differences but not relevant to the being and practice of meaningful ideas concerning Biblical Evangelical Fundamentalism. The WWFs will always be around. There are also WWEs (Wacko Windbag Evangelicals) and SWWLs (Super Wacko Windbag Liberals). Just don’t be blown away by the wind.
I would hope that any young Fundamentalists will understand the lack of visibility of the FBFI in most of the parts of the country. It is a wrongly organized group of individual Pastors and others in ministry. It is hanging on from the old Northern Baptist Fundamentalists who organized the group while still in the NBC. It should have dissolved when the CBFMS and then the CBA was formed. Here in Southern California they have five members representing three churches plus three stationed military chaplains. The churches represented are all under 100 and two may be less than 50. They have more representation in Northern California - about 30 men and less churches. The churches are all small. In Oregon they have 2 members and 14 in Washington. All from very small churches. So here on the West coast they are essentially an extremely small group representing a failed and shrinking type of Fundamentalism.
The latest Bauder v. Sweatt problem was essentially an Internet exchange that effected only those who wanted to get involved. One Internet blogger / stalker attempted to make a big issue out of the difference and put himself in it by calling for Bauder’s cancellation as a speaker. This was nothing but an extremist Fundamentalist exercising poor discernment and seeking to cause division,
The ideals of Biblical standards and practices that characterize the Christianity called Fundamentalism must be set apart from various groups and practices within Fundamentalism. Some groups may disappoint. That does not alter Biblical standards and practices. A young Fundamentalist may have good reason to leave a church or group. That does not abrogate their responsibility to uphold and seek out that which is Biblical.
So as an older guy, my advice to some others, who may be younger, is to get this FBFI brush up in perspective. It is revealing of differences but not relevant to the being and practice of meaningful ideas concerning Biblical Evangelical Fundamentalism. The WWFs will always be around. There are also WWEs (Wacko Windbag Evangelicals) and SWWLs (Super Wacko Windbag Liberals). Just don’t be blown away by the wind.
[Bob T.] SNIPOne does well to remember it’s not the number in a given directory, but how many are on the mailing list. I would dare say the NorCal numbers are larger than those you cite. However, the larger Fundamental Baptist churches that don’t attend the NorCal FBF meetings are ones you’d have troubles with. Questions about it being wrongly organized or disolving it with the birth of the CBA and CBFMS are bettered discussed elswhere here on SI.
I would hope that any young Fundamentalists will understand the lack of visibility of the FBFI in most of the parts of the country. It is a wrongly organized group of individual Pastors and others in ministry. It is hanging on from the old Northern Baptist Fundamentalists who organized the group while still in the NBC. It should have dissolved when the CBFMS and then the CBA was formed. Here in Southern California they have five members representing three churches plus three stationed military chaplains. The churches represented are all under 100 and two may be less than 50. They have more representation in Northern California - about 30 men and less churches. The churches are all small. In Oregon they have 2 members and 14 in Washington. All from very small churches. So here on the West coast they are essentially an extremely small group representing a failed and shrinking type of Fundamentalism. SNIP.
Hoping to shed more light than heat..
[Jim Peet] An example of a fundamentalism not worth saving!IMHO this may be said of the FBFI.
[Bob T.]Clarification for those who perhaps did not see the context : I was only referring to Mr. Congdon’s presentation (breakout session, “The Gospel Versus the Apostasy” )[Jim Peet] An example of a fundamentalism not worth saving!IMHO this may be said of the FBFI.
[Jim Peet]How disappointing, Jim.[Bob T.]Clarification for those who perhaps did not see the context : I was only referring to Mr. Congdon’s presentation (breakout session, “The Gospel Versus the Apostasy” )[Jim Peet] An example of a fundamentalism not worth saving!IMHO this may be said of the FBFI.
I was looking forward to you calling for the closing of the FBF doors … and the ensuing controversy! ;)
Ken Fields
Discussion