Bob Jones University Enters a New Era

I’ve never said or implied that secular jobs/ministry were unimportant. Of course there are more laymen serving Christ than people actually in “full-time” ministry. That’s how it should be. My point/concern is what appears to be the diminishing influence of the Seminary at BJU. I think that is a problem and is not a good sign of the future. If that had to happen for accreditation purposes, then that was too high a price to pay for accreditation. Somehow, I keep thinking of the decline of Princeton and the irrelevance of Princeton Seminary to the school.

Part of my cardiac rehab is that I go for a good walk every day so today I went to BJU and took my walk around campus. (The hills are steeper now that I’m 70.) I concentrated on looking for dress code violations among the ladies. (I suppose that makes me a dirty old man.) I did see a few girls whose skirts seemed too short to my aged eyes and some of the slacks could have used a little more slack. I’m still getting used to the idea that Christian men can sport facial hair. While dress was different, it seemed to me that there were no more violations today than there would have been in my day for long hair and sideburns on guys or uncheckable shirts on ladies.

BTW, Wally asked : “Whatever happened to the historically much publicized policy that graduates of BJU had the responsibility to insure the Bibllcal integrity of the school, and if the school ever departed from its Biblical beliefs, then graduates had the solemn responsibility to seek the closure of the school?” I would ask “What Biblical beliefs have they departed from?” The ones on inter-racial dating and accreditation? They were presented to us as Biblical.

In this discussion, I have not stated that BJU has departed from Biblical beliefs. (That could be the subject of another discussion.) I was just wondering about that much publicized obligation that graduates had to the school. Just wondering if it’s even still mentioned.

I sympathize with Wally’s point about how easily a Christian school can lose its biblical emphasis once secular majors start dominating the curriculum. Don’s point about fewer bible majors is well taken too. With fewer bible majors, the bible department loses a lot of standing to make funding and marketing decisions. Both points play into the idea that seminaries/bible colleges expand into secular offerings at the peril of becoming a predominantly secular school.

Liberty and Wheaton are essentially secular schools that require a small bible core. Bob Jones still has a significant bible requirement (essentially all graduates have at least a minor in bible), but fewer students will find the bible requirement a main motivator to attend. I am not optimistic that Bob Jones won’t become Liberty/Wheaton in 20 years. Maranatha is several steps behind BJU, but is headed in the same general direction. If it intends to primarily be a bible college, it needs to be careful that it doesn’t follow suit.

Bible colleges can survive in this day and age without offering secular majors. SBTS, RTS, and Moody are examples of accredited institutions that have avoided the pressure of introducing secular majors en masse and are still going strong. Don wonders where the next generation of pastors and ministerial leaders will come from. Well, I think he knows, but doesn’t like the answer.

The point is, once the majority of a bible college’s students come for secular majors, it has to really ask itself - what differentiates it from the state school? I contend that it is only the Christian sub-culture that it can maintain. But it better choose that sub-culture carefully! It’s existence will certainly depend on it!

[Ron Bean]

Part of my cardiac rehab is that I go for a good walk every day so today I went to BJU and took my walk around campus. (The hills are steeper now that I’m 70.) I concentrated on looking for dress code violations among the ladies. (I suppose that makes me a dirty old man.) I did see a few girls whose skirts seemed too short to my aged eyes and some of the slacks could have used a little more slack. I’m still getting used to the idea that Christian men can sport facial hair. While dress was different, it seemed to me that there were no more violations today than there would have been in my day for long hair and sideburns on guys or uncheckable shirts on ladies.

BTW, Wally asked : “Whatever happened to the historically much publicized policy that graduates of BJU had the responsibility to insure the Bibllcal integrity of the school, and if the school ever departed from its Biblical beliefs, then graduates had the solemn responsibility to seek the closure of the school?” I would ask “What Biblical beliefs have they departed from?” The ones on inter-racial dating and accreditation? They were presented to us as Biblical.

The dress issues are more of an issue after classes. I suggest you go at dinner time. Your opinion on the skinny jeans may well change. You also need to go to the athletic field when the students are out there exercising and playing which isn’t done as much during the day since PE is no longer required.

Michelle Suggested “The dress issues are more of an issue after classes. I suggest you go at dinner time. Your opinion on the skinny jeans may well change. You also need to go to the athletic field when the students are out there exercising and playing which isn’t done as much during the day since PE is no longer required.”

I’ll go over for dinner sometime next week. I like the dining common! Maybe take in a soccer game. No PE? Maybe that’s why their jeans are so tight. (A poor attempt at humor.)

[WallyMorris] I find the opposition to Bible degrees disturbing. I’m certainly in favor of people having a variety of work skills and education, but to give the impression that Bible degrees are not “real degrees” is astounding.

Speaking as someone who was an English major at a unaccredited Christian college, I wouldn’t say Bible / missions degrees are fake degrees. I would say they are practically worthless. They don’t provide the training needed to pastor a church. They don’t provide the solid liberal arts foundation and practical training needed to land a decent job that provides for a family.

Best option: get a marketable degree that provides a solid liberal arts education then go to seminary.

I know too many Bible / missions majors who ended up working at WhatABurger or had to settle for low-level IT jobs.

I see a significant difference in the shifts between BJ and Northland. BJU is seeming to shift in the same way that fundamentalism in general is shifting. The worship war is largely over. The conservatives lost (there are still conservatives out there - including myself - and so we simply guide our own churches as best as possible in worship). BJU’s focus on discipleship rather than outward appearances, again, is another laudible shift within fundamentalism itself. As such, as their constituency changes, BJ is changing. This is good.

Northland rejected their constituency.

Big difference.

I now tell young people interested in ministry - go to tech school/community college (or the military) and learn a trade (electrical, plumbing, pipeline, etc.). Don’t worry about finishing a BA or BS at the time. Work for a year or two, save some money (and work a lot in the local church), and when you are 22-23, go to seminary for a Diploma equivalent to an MDiv. Then take a pastorate. You have skills to support yourself if needed. You can, through online or night school, finish your bachelors degree (which will be significantly easier after 3-4 years of grad school), and transfer the diploma into an MDiv.

[WallyMorris]

In this discussion, I have not stated that BJU has departed from Biblical beliefs. (That could be the subject of another discussion.) I was just wondering about that much publicized obligation that graduates had to the school. Just wondering if it’s even still mentioned.

As an alumnus, I signed to defend the fundamental beliefs as outlined in the creed, not to defend every rule in the handbook. Tell me which part of the fundamentals of the faith the school is anywhere close to ignoring?

I’m a 1989 graduate and was a hall leader for 2 years. Even though I am grateful for my alma mater, I can tell you there was very little discipleship going on at the school when I was there. There was no purpose to chapel messages, just whatever the speaker wanted to talk about that day. Dorm counselors and hall leaders were trained more about the rules and nothing about counseling. I was given the hall leader job because I was a nice guy and was known by the right people. The enforcement structure left no room for grace or common sense judgment. Too many times a student was jettisoned because of the strict interpretation of applying demerits to certain infractions. The system became more important than the soul of the student.

I currently have a daughter at BJU and a son at a state university. To say that, now, BJU is no different than a state university is ridiculous. Sure, the girl’s dress standards may be a bit looser than our family’s, but they are not grossly so and our daughter adheres to our family’s standards. That’s what parents are for.

As for BJU’s competitors, outside the Greenville area it is more the local community colleges or state universities than a Liberty or a Wheaton. The cost is the big issue and many folks would love to send their kids to BJU but can’t make it work so the kids stay close to home.

I agree with CAWatson. My story:

• AA at 18 years old (Running Start program)
• Military from 18-28, doing law enforcement and criminal investigations
• BA while in the service online from accreddited secular university (tuition free - thanks, Navy :) )
• Seminary after the Navy, free (thanks, GI Bill :) )
• Pastorate, at which I would have been run over by a main battle tank if I were a 22-yr old with a BA from Billy Joe’s Bible College, and wasn’t mature and wise enough to handle the problems I faced. I was paid very little, had to work fulltime in addition to pastoral duties, and had no health insurance.
• Back in the secular workforce as a supervisory regulatory fraud investigator with a state agency, which wouldn’t have been possible if I didn’t have practical job experience, education and credentials in a career field that can actually support my family. I teach adult Sunday School every week, and have more fun then I ever did as a Pastor. My family’s spiritual health is also one million times better. I’ve never been happier in my life. I just had breakfast this morning with another man in my church (an evangelical who graduated from an evangelical seminary) about how to make adult Sunday School more interactive, and ideas for the teen ministry. I’m still in ministry, I just don’t have the label of “pastor.”

Go military. Go community college. You don’t need a bible college BA. You need skills and a career field you can use in real life, while you do ministry. You need a backup plan, especially if you’re forced to get a second job to supplement your pastoral salary. I’ll always remember a friend, in his late 50s, who is a pastor. I sought his advice when I resigned my pastorate. He told me, “If I knew how to do anything else, I’d have left a long time ago.” His wife has had to work their entire marriage, because ministry didn’t (and still doesn’t) pay enough. She always wanted to homeschool their kids, but couldn’t, because she had to work. How sad. I really feel sorry for him.

I have a BS in Education from a state university but passed on getting a teacher certification from the state because, as a new Christian, I was told the public schools were evil and certification was a trap. I taught for poverty wages in a Christian school for 3 years and then went to seminary for 3 years. I was full-time pastor for 12 years, again at poverty wages, before returning to Christian education as a teacher administrator where we lived paycheck to paycheck and were unable to help our kids with their college costs. At age 60 I found myself with no savings, no home (we rented), and no skills applicable to a “real job”.. Thankfully God gave me a job in retail with a great company with great benefits that treated me better than the ministries in which I served. Looking back, I could have better provided for my family if I had a skill that would have allowed me to supplement my pastoral earnings. As our fundamental churches grow smaller and lose their ability to employ full-time pastors, bi-vocational pastors are becoming the new normal. My advice to young pastors is “get a vocation to supplement your calling! Especially if you’re planting a church.” The CE’s/convergents are way ahead of us on this as bi-vo has become typical of their church planters.

I have to respond to the fake news you reported, but first this…

[Steve Davis]

Sorry that Don has FB friends who don’t like him. Anyway it doesn’t help his argument.

Please note, this is not an FB friend, it is someone who took the trouble to find me and send me a message. Not sure he is a Christian, but he reads SI. I wasn’t making a point, just an ironic observation.

[Steve Davis]

I was a monitor at BJ (before hall leaders). My first year I received lots of demerits. I realized it was better to give than to receive. Becoming a monitor solved that problem. I was a good legalist. Chased a guy once for walking on the grass - was it Don?

This is the fake news. Nope. Never been on grass in my life.

Seriously though, I always thought you were tough but fair. As you see in my subject line, you did have a reputation, you did get the nickname, but I never had the impression that you were unfair in your treatment of the rest of us. My own record was fairly bland at BJU, I don’t think I ever had more than 10 demerits or so in any one semester. I didn’t have any trouble with the rules, some of them seemed dumb, but what’s the point of breaking them? To prove what? I recall some guys I knew who just had to sneak off and go to a movie two weeks before graduation their senior year. Dumb. They left on a jet plane.

Anyway, in all of this I am not arguing for rules as such. I am arguing that the overall package of changes have left me dissatisfied and I really have no more enthusiasm for recommending BJU.