FBFI "Why we are still here"

I could be believing my own narrative, I suppose.

Or I could actually be referring to what Dr. Vaughn said in his opening remarks:

Already, I have received an appeal to cancel any plans to allow Mark to edit an issue of FrontLine and even to shut down his regular column.

I report, you decide.

disproves your narrative. Of course there are differences of opinion. Check this or any thread here, if you aren’t sure!

What counts are actions. The leadership in the FBFI value what Mark brings to the table. That’s why he’s there. He’s not being shut out.

Don,

I’m really not sure what you’re getting at.

Dr. Ward is involved Frontline. Someone (and I don’t care who) responded privately to Dr. Vaughn and suggested that Ward be blocked from writing his usual column and cancel any plans to include him in editing the magazine as a result of what he wrote. Given what I know of the FBFI and it’s members, I’m fairly sure that it isn’t a one-off. That situation is ludicrous.

I agree with you that Ward’s not currently being shut out. My point is someone going directly to the FBFI president to ask (demand?) that Ward should no longer be permitted to participate in the Frontline process as a result of his article (or whatever) is a problem. It suggests, as several people have done over multiple years at SharperIron, that the FBFI is nothing more than an echo chamber for the already convinced. That, combined with the responses of many here, give massive clues as to why the FBFI membership has largely collapsed, if someone is willing to pay attention to that problem.

Please don’t waste our time by having Dr. Vaughn tell us about how much he values the perspective of other young fundamentalists and then have these ridiculous back-channel discussions to block them from airing that perspective in your communications when we/they say things you don’t like.

then your question is answered, he wrote an article in this issue and he has been published there before. I have featured him at least twice on P&D that I can recall off the top of my head. I only wish he wrote more, I’d love to have him regularly.

For the record, I’d describe myself as a one-point Calvinist (at best). But I value the work of good brethren like Mike Riley and am glad to promote their work.

they make you sound ridiculous. So now we have “back channel” conversations! Ooh, sounds conspiratorial. How sinister!

the reality is that it is a free country AND that Dr Vaughn mentioned it to show that on the contrary, Mark is well respected and much appreciated.

but carry on with your conspiracy theories and by all means keep on sighing. Seems like a reasoned theological response

Jay brings out something very important here; the demand that Mark Ward be removed as an FBFI writer, and for that matter what appears to be the deletion of Mark’s comments about how FBFI and its allies are becoming ghettoized, really means a lot here. Correction and apology; I was looking in the wrong place. The comments on FBFI becoming ghettoized are still on the link from the other thread. My apologies for this mistake!

If you tell me, for example, that “likely convergents” like myself are violating the first fundamental (inerrancy of Scripture) because I’m not against putting a blues beat into music in the church (and would in fact recommend more of it), I will listen to your argument and respond to it. If there are errors of basic informal logic, you will hear about that, possibly ad nauseum. I will evaluate your claims of fact, your syllogisms, and respond to them as best I know Biblically.

Notice; that is not what happened here. It’s time for something like that to start—or else Mark’s warning about “Front Line” being a wishful thought will seem positively optimistic in retrospect. Sometimes reality—like an overdrawn bank account—hurts, but denying that reality doubles down on the consequences.

I think that Don and I are at an impasse, so I will be moving on from that point.

I also wanted to reiterate the warning in Bert’s previous post:

​”Sometimes reality—like an overdrawn bank account—hurts, but denying that reality doubles down on the consequences.”

I’ve been hoping that reality will settle in, but had concluded that it wasn’t going to. Now that there’s a special issue of Frontline for some of our younger Fundamentalists to speak and say things that ought to be said, I’m much more hopeful. I’m actually interested in subscribing again, for starters.

[Bert Perry]

…one of the major problems I’ve got with most CCM is that they don’t use the blues enough…

Who here hasn’t sung this refrain?:

“At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
And the burden of my heart rolled away,
It was there by faith I received my sight,
And now I am happy all the day!”

Mark Ward, staking out a traditional-music only position in his FrontLine article [ http://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2017/04/18/why-im-still-here/ ] said, ““Give ’em Watts.” O.K. as most everybody reading this probably knows, the refrain above is from Isaac Watts’ beloved hymn, At the Cross. The problem is that its last line simply isn’t true.

Christians, are you honestly “happy all the day!”? I’m not. Problems, pressures, distractions beyond my (apparent) control can get to me, wear on me, discourage me. Yes, at the bottom of it all, I know God is in control. Knowing that doesn’t eliminate the perceptions, the pain, the hurts that accompany problems though. Watts’ refrain simply doesn’t reflect reality.

Or who here didn’t sing this as a kid?:

“If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands (clap clap)
If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands (clap clap)
If you’re happy and you know it, then your face will surely show it
If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands. (clap clap)”

Once again, there is an inherent dishonesty to the lyrics.

Christians will face trials: (James 1:2-4 ESV), (1 Peter 5:10 ESV), (2 Cor. 4:8-9 ESV). Even Jesus faced despair: in the Garden (Matt. 26:36-42 ESV), and on the Cross (Matt. 27:46 ESV).

––––––––––––––—

Personally, I think that many CCM songs better face reality in this regard than many older hymns.

Take these lyrics:

“I’m so confused
I know I heard You loud and clear
So, I followed through
Somehow I ended up here
I don’t wanna think
I may never understand
That my broken heart is a part of Your plan
When I try to pray
All I’ve got is hurt and these four words
Thy will be done
Thy will be done
Thy will be done
I know You’re good
But this don’t feel good right now
And I know You think
Of things I could never think about
It’s hard to count it all joy
Distracted by the noise
Just trying to make sense
Of all Your promises
Sometimes I gotta stop
Remember that You’re God
And I am not…”

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/hillaryscott/thywill.html

There’s a raw honesty in those lyrics that “And now I am happy all the day!” just doesn’t fathom.

Or take these lyrics:

“I was sure by now
God You would have reached down
And wiped our tears away
Stepped in and saved the day
But once again, I say “Amen”, and it’s still raining
As the thunder rolls
I barely hear Your whisper through the rain
“I’m with you”
And as Your mercy falls
I raise my hands and praise the God who gives
And takes away
[Chorus:]
And I’ll praise You in this storm
And I will lift my hands
For You are who You are
No matter where I am
And every tear I’ve cried
You hold in Your hand
You never left my side
And though my heart is torn
I will praise You in this storm”

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/castingcrowns/praiseyouinthisstorm.html

I’ve actually heard this song sung as a solo in an IFB church funeral, where it was well received (and greatly appreciated) by the mourners.

Or take these lyrics:

“We pray for blessings, we pray for peace
Comfort for family, protection while we sleep
We pray for healing, for prosperity
We pray for Your mighty hand to ease our suffering
And all the while, You hear each spoken need
Yet love us way too much to give us lesser things
‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if trials of this life are Your mercies in disguise
We pray for wisdom, Your voice to hear
We cry in anger when we cannot feel You near
We doubt your goodness, we doubt your love
As if every promise from Your word is not enough
And all the while, You hear each desperate plea
And long that we’d have faith to believe
‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if trials of this life are Your mercies in disguise
When friends betray us
When darkness seems to win
We know that pain reminds this heart
That this is not,
This is not our home
It’s not our home
‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if my greatest disappointments or the aching of this life
Is the revealing of a greater thirst this world can’t satisfy
What if trials of this life
The rain, the storms, the hardest nights
Are your mercies in disguise”

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/laurastory/blessings.html

There’s an authenticity in them that doesn’t involve putting on a smiley-face false front.

––––––––––––––—

My point is that singing the “blues” may be exactly what Christians should be doing more often, instead of attempting to superficially gloss over our trials.

[Larry Nelson]

Bert Perry wrote:

…one of the major problems I’ve got with most CCM is that they don’t use the blues enough…

Who here hasn’t sung this refrain?:

“At the cross, at the cross where I first saw the light,
And the burden of my heart rolled away,
It was there by faith I received my sight,
And now I am happy all the day!”

Mark Ward, staking out a traditional-music only position in his FrontLine article [ http://www.proclaimanddefend.org/2017/04/18/why-im-still-here/ ] said, ““Give ’em Watts.” O.K. as most everybody reading this probably knows, the refrain above is from Isaac Watts’ beloved hymn, At the Cross. The problem is that its last line simply isn’t true.

Christians, are you honestly “happy all the day!”? I’m not. Problems, pressures, distractions beyond my (apparent) control can get to me, wear on me, discourage me. Yes, at the bottom of it all, I know God is in control. Knowing that doesn’t eliminate the perceptions, the pain, the hurts that accompany problems though. Watts’ refrain simply doesn’t reflect reality.

Or who here didn’t sing this as a kid?:

“If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands (clap clap)
If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands (clap clap)
If you’re happy and you know it, then your face will surely show it
If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands. (clap clap)”

Once again, there is an inherent dishonesty to the lyrics.

Christians will face trials: (James 1:2-4 ESV), (1 Peter 5:10 ESV), (2 Cor. 4:8-9 ESV). Even Jesus faced despair: in the Garden (Matt. 26:36-42 ESV), and on the Cross (Matt. 27:46 ESV).

––––––––––––––—

Personally, I think that many CCM songs better face reality in this regard than many older hymns.

Take these lyrics:

“I’m so confused
I know I heard You loud and clear
So, I followed through
Somehow I ended up here
I don’t wanna think
I may never understand
That my broken heart is a part of Your plan
When I try to pray
All I’ve got is hurt and these four words

Thy will be done
Thy will be done
Thy will be done

I know You’re good
But this don’t feel good right now
And I know You think
Of things I could never think about
It’s hard to count it all joy
Distracted by the noise
Just trying to make sense
Of all Your promises
Sometimes I gotta stop
Remember that You’re God
And I am not…”

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/hillaryscott/thywill.html

There’s a raw honesty in those lyrics that “And now I am happy all the day!” just doesn’t fathom.

Or take these lyrics:

“I was sure by now
God You would have reached down
And wiped our tears away
Stepped in and saved the day
But once again, I say “Amen”, and it’s still raining

As the thunder rolls
I barely hear Your whisper through the rain
“I’m with you”
And as Your mercy falls
I raise my hands and praise the God who gives
And takes away

[Chorus:]
And I’ll praise You in this storm
And I will lift my hands
For You are who You are
No matter where I am
And every tear I’ve cried
You hold in Your hand
You never left my side
And though my heart is torn
I will praise You in this storm”

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/castingcrowns/praiseyouinthisstorm.html

I’ve actually heard this song sung as a solo in an IFB church funeral, where it was well received (and greatly appreciated) by the mourners.

Or take these lyrics:

“We pray for blessings, we pray for peace
Comfort for family, protection while we sleep
We pray for healing, for prosperity
We pray for Your mighty hand to ease our suffering
And all the while, You hear each spoken need
Yet love us way too much to give us lesser things

‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if trials of this life are Your mercies in disguise

We pray for wisdom, Your voice to hear
We cry in anger when we cannot feel You near
We doubt your goodness, we doubt your love
As if every promise from Your word is not enough
And all the while, You hear each desperate plea
And long that we’d have faith to believe

‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near
What if trials of this life are Your mercies in disguise

When friends betray us
When darkness seems to win
We know that pain reminds this heart
That this is not,
This is not our home
It’s not our home

‘Cause what if your blessings come through rain drops
What if Your healing comes through tears
What if a thousand sleepless nights are what it takes to know You’re near

What if my greatest disappointments or the aching of this life
Is the revealing of a greater thirst this world can’t satisfy
What if trials of this life
The rain, the storms, the hardest nights
Are your mercies in disguise”

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/laurastory/blessings.html

There’s an authenticity in them that doesn’t involve putting on a smiley-face false front.

––––––––––––––—

My point is that singing the “blues” may be exactly what Christians should be doing more often, instead of attempting to superficially gloss over our trials.

First, agreed that Watts is not responsible for “Happy all the day”—I think it was borrowed from the Awana Cubbies song, which uses similar verbiage. (j/k)

But my quibble is simply that we ought to differentiate between “the blues” as meaning music with some sad themes, and blues as in using the stylistic and instrumental characteristic of black gospel and delta blues. My take is that church music ought to have the former when appropriate, and the latter more often.

It is a rule. Somehow, through some bizarre combination of circumstances, a discussion about Baptist fundamentalism will always turn to music. :)

Well, it can turn to music—say the blues—or it can go to something that rhymes with “blues”. No?

Seriously, there is something interesting and good that happened here. Usually when music is discussed, there are a lot more challenges like Mark’s “why would you want to bring a blues riff into the church”, and sometimes others have been cagey about answering that. This time, the challenges were made a smaller portion of the time, and the responses have been direct and emphatic, citing lyrics and all.

Unless (as could be the case) it’s just a case of one side being seen as shouting down the other (I at least try to avoid that), the discussion may be moving to something more substantive than the usual “guilt by association” arguments and the like.

[TylerR]

It is a rule. Somehow, through some bizarre combination of circumstances, a discussion about Baptist fundamentalism will always turn to music.

“There was only singing - and it was all CCM, and it was shallow. It sounded like low-rent pop from the lesser radio stations with a Jesus gloss.”

The tune/refrain of “At the Cross” was written by Ralph E. Hudson.

Isaac Watts wrote “Alas and Did My Savior Bleed.” Martyrdom is a far better tune than Hudson.