How Long Will Your Church Survive Under a Clinton Presidency?

[Dan Miller]

Jay, when you say, “I cannot support Trump,” I’m wondering what you mean. Trump has made some very lascivious statements that I can’t support. Especially in the past. But I’m not sure I expect moral purity from a president. I tend to see him as very open about who he is. (Or was?) But I fully expect that many of our elected officials have the same evils in their hearts.

The difference is that they are politicians - so they hid it better. And they have been politicians for a long time. So they have hidden it for a long time. Career politics is part of what I think is hurting our country. I want to see political outsiders take office. I don’t see how to do that without some nose holding that other politicians spare us with obfuscation.

My thoughts. Yes Trump is a sexually deviant pig and yes, probably lots of other presidents have been too.

The thing about Trump though is he is just not capable. He is all hot air. His speeches are just stupid personal attacks and sound bites. He is not much of a business person. He could have invested the money from his dad in index funds and done better than he has and that is without bilking taxpayers and banks out of billions through bankruptcy and tax advantages. I have absolutely no respect for the man as a business person.

So what is he? He is just a narcissist who thinks he should be president. That is it.

Politics can be a noble calling, even a lifelong/career service. Politics is working in/with the “polity” (people, citizens, the “system”, etc.) to achieve what is good. Those who are not “politicians”, those who have little or no experience in secular government, often bring fresh perspectives and new ideas to achieving the good. Trump has always been a politician of some type. Business has politics. Church has politics. Family has politics. We are all “career politicians” of some type, at some level. If elected, Trump will become a different politician than the one he has been, to a much higher degree and intensity. How well he does, if elected, we will all see. However, the problem is not “politics” but our sin nature which corrupts. Unfortunately the first rule for many politicians is make sure you get reelected and, if not reelected, provide for your life after politics. The Tea Party movement brought many “outsiders” to government and brought needed change to some aspects of government. But even they achieved limited results. Ronald Reagan tried to change some aspects of government. He did have some good results, but not the extent many had hoped. And he was as skillful a politician as any could be.

I agree with the sentiment of apward’s initial comment on the thread. The church itself will survive independently of politics. Christ has guaranteed it. The most common form of Western church business operation model however, may be jeopardized.

Right now, this model involves a group of believers incorporating their assets, and operating said corporation in either a revenue neutral or non-profit capacity. Government protections of religious congregation and incorporation including freedom of speech and tax exemptions have made this model a pragmatic one. Realizing that this church operation model is not Biblically mandated is of utmost importance to the conversation as to whether or not the church will survive.

For those who cannot dissociate the church business model with the body of Christ, increased government persecution may very well sound like a death knell. I am much more sanguine.

I don’t see any issue with churches becoming unincorporated and moving their physical operations to their member’s houses. I don’t see any problem with churches supporting pastoral families with in-kind contributions of food and housing, and with out of pocket cash donations. Can God be worshipped and glorified without the accoutrements of a big building? Can the gospel be given without them as well? The answer to these questions is yes! Nothing else really matters.

I consider myself to be in the numerator in de Hundehutte’s analogy (mathematical objections aside). Because Christ is in the denominator, I really don’t see why the hand wringing is necessary over how political winds may change the church operational model. The church will need to be flexible in terms of arranging logistics to accommodate the new political realities.

As a final point - if our effectiveness is limited to having a certain operational model, we have most certainly put Christ in the numerator.

The article was not saying the church won’t survive, but rather that those churches who do not have Christ as the “denominator” will either capitulate or dwindle. Those who do have Christ as the denominator will stand firm. The author wasn’t saying the Church will die out, but rather that “Christianity” will become less influential as a force in America. And as far as that is concerned I agree with JBL.

I now feel that neither Trump nor Clinton will be able to finish their 4 year term; therefore, I am looking at the VPs in this race as to how I am voting.