A Look at Today’s Secular College Campus

[Don Johnson]

What would you suggest, since you seem to know that local churches hinder the discipleship process?

“When Christ gave us the Great Commission He gave us the promise, “Lo, I am with you.” That promise is critical to discipleship. “Behold—see—I am always with you, throughout this entire age of grace.” Discipleship is not something we do for Him; it is something He does through us. That is the critical element in discipleship.”

http://fbfi.org/the-critical-element-in-discipleship/

Many churches get this wrong; they view discipleship as “something we do for Him.” This hinders true discipleship.

Churches must instead view (& facilitate) discipleship as “something He does through us.” This is conducive to true discipleship.

[Larry Nelson]

Don Johnson wrote:

What would you suggest, since you seem to know that local churches hinder the discipleship process?

“When Christ gave us the Great Commission He gave us the promise, “Lo, I am with you.” That promise is critical to discipleship. “Behold—see—I am always with you, throughout this entire age of grace.” Discipleship is not something we do for Him; it is something He does through us. That is the critical element in discipleship.”

http://fbfi.org/the-critical-element-in-discipleship/

Many churches get this wrong; they view discipleship as “something we do for Him.” This hinders true discipleship.

Churches must instead view (& facilitate) discipleship as “something He does through us.” This is conducive to true discipleship.

Larry,

The article says that the Holy Spirit is the “critical element” in discipleship, but it doesn’t really describe HOW viewing the Holy spirit as critical actually changes how a local church facilitates discipleship. Earlier in the thread you stated ” local churches sometimes hinder rather then help the discipleship process of believers by neglecting priorities or by focusing on misplaced priorities.” Don Johnson then asked you, “What do you suggest?” and you answer here with the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that the power of the Holy Spirit can be neglected ot misplaced, but what would change in a church’s efforts at discipleship when the Holy Spirit is viewed correctly?

We need to minister and support students in whatever choice they make.

Every family’s situation is different.

I know this is ancient history but in 1967 I was lucky to go to college. I wasn’t saved so didn’t even know about those choices. When I graduated from HS my peers went largely 3 ways: Ohio State, Miami University in Oxford Ohio, and for those who could not afford the above = the University of Cincinnati.

I dearly wanted to go to Miami U b/c many friends went that way.

I did the “pay as you go” plan: Dad gave me $ 250 … and then I was on my own. Worked hard for the next quarter’s (UC was on the quarter system then) tuition and went.

–––—

As an aside I visited a college last year at this time .. .the North Hennepin Community College near my home. It is a commuter school .. no dorms. It has 10,000 students. The diversity is amazing. This is a mission field! Should not be ignored!

Is it just me, or does it seem weird that we are usually enthusiastic - or at least OK - with young men joining the military, but so many feel trepidation about secular college? Like, we can send them to the other side of the world and into battle to die, but they can’t be around girls in short skirts because they might irretrievably stumble?

I hope folks are aware of the rampant immorality and substance abuse that takes place in our Armed Forces. Just because it’s a ‘controlled’ organization that’s all about Truth, Justice, and the American Way doesn’t mean it’s like Sunday School with camo and guns.

So if folks are feeling angsty about kids in secular college, they must be very anti kids-in-the-military.

I was considering writing a post making that exact same point. I joined the Navy on active-duty when I was 18. It was not a temple of moral purity. It’s the real world. It’s real life. I survived. I grew. I’m still here.

O.K., I have some time to reply…..

I’m not sure I can adequately put into words what I mean, but here goes:

Several years ago, I first ran across Philip Yancey’s quote, “[T] here is nothing I can do to make God love me more, and nothing I can do to make God love me less.” Being in a church at the time that regularly told me just the opposite, that quotation initially gave me pause. I thought, “That’s not true.” God certainly more loved, or at least favored, his children who complied with certain restrictions. If Yancey’s quote was true, then why did we have such a detailed checklist of “do’s” and “don’t’s” (mostly don’ts) that clearly served to distinguish the godly from the backslidden? Things like always wearing a suit & tie or dresses to church: only less spiritually-mature Christians (if they even were Christians…) attended church more casually (or even in *gasp* jeans!) we were told. Possibly the worst sin a believer could commit (based upon the high percentage of sermons in which it was mentioned) was to smoke. The fact that nobody in the church smoked didn’t lessen the frequency of it being preached against.

The problem that began to gnaw at me was that many of those “checklist” items had little or nothing to do with the specific indications of Christ-likeness in terms of true discipleship that the Bible actually mentions. (I won’t take the time to detail those here; but they are certainly numerous.) The objective of the process of discipleship in that church (and in similar churches I know of) was virtually reduced to merely becoming conformed to a certain outward image. Conforming to inner/internal qualities as outlined in the Bible that are given as becoming like Christ? Not so much.

In practice, here’s how that plays out in churches of this mindset: the unsaved mother of a nine year old girl, who has just recently begun riding the church bus to Sunday School, is told that if she wishes for her daughter to continue attending, the child must wear a skirt or dress, rather than pants. (Of course, the child was never seen at the church again.) Or the pastor who, seeing a (visiting) woman with very short hair, launches into a tirade against feminism, all the while glaring in her direction. (The woman in question was a cancer patient whose hair was just growing back following chemotherapy.) The reason that things like this occur at some churches is that the discipleship model these people have been subject to is works-based, rather than grace-based. In the instances above, appearances were valued more than Biblical substance. Rather than have a little girl attend Sunday School in pants, the church in question chose to cease having opportunities to share the gospel with her and her mother. And rather than tolerating the “butch” hairstyle of a possibly unbelieving woman in their midst, that church chose to perhaps harden her to the gospel forever.

Far too often I’ve witnessed (or heard first-hand accounts of) the results of discipleship-efforts gone wrong, in that the “neglected priorities” are teaching that is not directed at developing the inner qualities of Christ-likeness that the Bible commands, and the “misplaced priorities” are ones that focus on peripheral issues. We may focus on what is temporally trivial, at the expense of what is eternally vital.

One thing I’m driving at is that unless/until we really accept & believe that God’s love for us is unconditional (Yancey’s quote), our discipleship methods can become stalled in (futile) efforts to gain more of His love (or at least favor). Once we reject that mindset, and once we really understand that God doesn’t love us based on anything that we have done or can do, then discipleship methods & efforts become more Biblically effective. Our emphasis should become not to serve Him under any sense of obligation (for we can never begin to reply our debt), but in utter gratitude. Our basis for our actions and our decisions will then more often represent “something He does through us,” rather than “something we do for Him.”

That’s a rather convoluted (and surely not entirely coherent) way of arriving at what I believe John Vaughn was getting at.

Perhaps a good way of looking at the Spirit’s role in discipleship is to understand the difference between the Pharisees and the Disciples. The Pharisees had that nice long list of rules that kinda-sorta came from the Scriptures, but weren’t necessarily what Moses actually was getting at. The apostles, however, had Christ’s teaching along with the Tanach, and after He ascended, the Gospels note repeatedly that they remembered how Jesus said this in light of a prophecy or passage in the Old Testament.

Or, to oversimplify a bit, the Counselor, given at Pentecost, worked in the Disciples significantly through their previous knowledge of the Scriptures. So we would infer that disciple-making is not primarily about inferring the right attitudes and putting the right rules into place, but to help the believer understand the treasure he has in the Scriptures and prayer, and in leaving room for the believer to think things through himself.

• Dated: from 2005 (by the way I doubt campuses are better today)
• “hit piece”: Just in time to scare and shame parents
• hyperbole: like “the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah”
• Agenda anyone: author ” serves on the administrative staff of Falls Baptist Church and Baptist College of Ministry in Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin.”

[Larry Nelson]

O.K., I have some time to reply…..

just wanted to make it clear who I am replying to…

Larry, aren’t the illustrations you cite more issues with evangelism rather than discipleship?

I would agree that the churches/pastors you describe have problems (as described). But really that isn’t the issue in college choice. Personally, all things being equal, I would recommend that young people choose a good Christian college every time over secular.

there are two problems with that, as I see it. One is that the really good Christian colleges are diminishing. The other is that often things aren’t equal, especially money-wise. Even then, I would urge the Christian to make some sacrifices in favour of a Christian education.

please see:

http://www.mbu.edu/tuition-and-costs/

it gives a semester cost of 10,490 room/board, tuition, and comprehensive fee.

Rounding makes that +/-21,000 USD.

They have 1 major: “Baptist College of Ministry is enrolled as a Bible Major”

Everything else is a minor:

• Pastoral leadership
• Missions
• Evangelistic ministry
• Music
• Education

Observation: an 18 year old graduating in 4 years in “Pastoral leaderhip” (now at 22) is about 10 years short of maturity from being a pastor

That’s why a virtual education is simply the best, most practical option today. Or, join the military and go to university later on the GI Bill … !

At MBU, join the ROTC program. Why wait four or more years.

http://www.mbu.edu/rotc/

[TylerR]

That’s why a virtual education is simply the best, most practical option today. Or, join the military and go to university later on the GI Bill … !

….but in reality, it’s a bit more like this. :^) God has blessed, but you’re not going to mistake me for Bill Gates or Warren Buffett anytime soon.

Regarding Don’s point, I tend to agree that it’s worth our time and money to get a good Christian education—the question is how and where, and agreed as well that there are not enough good options.

Don’s also got a good question of whether the situations Larry mentions really reflect discipleship or evangelism more, but does it matter? Any church activity outside of the deacons’ meeting will have nonbelievers and believers together, and looking at Strong’s 2098 and the Great Commission, I don’t see a hard and fast line.

But that said, no matter where I see a pastor doing what Larry describes, I have to assume that they got the idea somewhere. Look closely in the student handbooks of some Bible colleges and you will find that kind of thing, and it matters a lot.

You wrote:

At MBU, join the ROTC program. Why wait four or more years.

Two reasons:

1. I don’t believe you get the GI Bill while you’re in ROTC, and
2. Most importantly, you shouldn’t join ROTC at MBU because their program is Army. Everybody knows the Navy is the best service.