Dead Right - The Failure of Fundamentalism

[T Howard]

dgszweda wrote:

Unfortunately, Jim, this is my grandfather who wrote this. And at the end of the day, was one of the roots of the fundamentalism problem.

I think your family owes Johnny Mac some reparations.

I may have to :) I was waiting one of these days to see some of his stuff up here.

[T Howard]

dgszweda wrote:

Unfortunately, Jim, this is my grandfather who wrote this. And at the end of the day, was one of the roots of the fundamentalism problem.

I think your family owes Johnny Mac some reparations.

But what if MacArthur doesn’t want BJU? Or is David’s grandfather the host of “the watchman Awakes”, Bob Johnson?

And I knew that Tyler was one of them. Word has it that the John Birch Society now has an office hidden deep in the Divernon Mountains to keep an eye on him.

Seriously, it strikes me that the disasters of our movement are a target rich environment, and if we truly value the Gospel, we’ll get started with repentance rather than a circular firing squad.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

There is much to learn from Phil Johnson’s candid takedown of the fundamentalist movement. The problem is that some people aren’t interested in learning anything - they’re too shallow for honest introspection:

  • Some shallow people enjoy reveling in the sins and excesses of others, like self-righteous vultures feasting upon a dead elephant. “Look at what Hyles did! What a loser! Here’s another link …”
  • In other folks, shallowness reveals itself by way of deliberate self-deception, like the poor sap Truman (not the former president) who refused to leave Mt. St. Helens before it blew up. “Problem? There’s no problem in fundamentalism! No, siree! You’re a traitor and a scoundrel for even suggesting that!”

We can learn from past mistakes, and commit to not repeat them. That’s the value of a piece like this.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Most of us who “grew up” at BJU have been embarrassed at times by unfortunate statements and positions. Many years ago, I pleaded with BJ III to drop the attacks against John MacArthur’s teaching on the blood of Christ. At the time, he agreed, but the attacks continued a bit longer. That was the last time I felt comfortable inviting “Dr. Bob” to speak in my church. I never knew what hobby horse he might be riding next.

And yet, I remain a grateful BJU Grad. I learned so much during my twelve years there. The Christian life was both taught and modeled by some of the most humble and dedicated Christians I have ever known. I love BJU, and I love the Jones family, warts and all. I am thankful for their courageous defense of the Christian faith over four generations. I am also grateful for current developments. I pray that BJU will become stronger, humbler, quieter, and more Biblically effective in the days to come, and I believe I see that taking place.

G. N. Barkman

Don’t forget Doran’s contribution to that discussion back in the day:
http://www.aaccs.info/media/Doran%20Stop%20the%20Funeral—We’re%20Not%20Quite%20Dead%20Yet.pdf

Fast forward to 2016…
https://tmai.brushfireapp.com/events/430252

And don’t forget this 2013 event…
http://www.mbaoc.net/men/audio-sessions/

Or this 2008 interview…
http://9marks.org/interview/fundamentalism-and-separation-mark-minnick/

Johnson’s observations were important, but not everything is the same as it used to be. When I attended the Shepherds’ Conference in 2014, there were plenty of people I encountered who would be “fundamentalists” of one sort or another. Same with the 9 Marks Weekender I attended in September 2007.
Now, that isn’t to say that there aren’t still differences in emphasis, methods, and so on, or that everyone is fine with the growing sense of friendliness. But for good or bad, there is more hand-shaking across the fences than there used to be in 2005.

Greg Linscott
Marshall, MN

You didn’t go to BJU. You didn’t sit under the ministry of Jack Hyles. Why do you feel like you have to apologize for the goof-ball, sinful stuff they did?

For evangelicalism: I didn’t revere the Kansas City Prophets. I don’t listen to Joyce Myers. I don’t adhere to T.D. Jakes. Etc… Why do I have to explain anything by calling myself evangelical just because some people call them that? I used to be a charismatic. Trust me, MOST charismatic don’t call themselves evangelical.

My point is, why all this hand-ringing over past stuff THAT I DIDN’T DO? If moving forward I have to explain and defend or reject the past, I am going no where.

Have no fear - I don’t feel I have to apologize for anything stupid fundamentalists did in years gone by.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

Why did you bring up these old articles?

‘Cuz I thought he made some great points, many of which are still valid. There is a bizarre tendency in Christian circles to want to bury the past and never discuss it. Those who do discuss the past are occasionally suspected of harboring sinister and dark motivations. I have no such motivations. I harbor no festering gall of bitterness towards the fundamentalist movement. I’ve simply been listening to old Shepherd’s Conference audio files, came across this one (and the one about evangelicalism), and decided to post them.

Of course, if I were working for the Jesuits, GTY or the Illuminati, you’d expect me to say this. Although, this statement could be a double-bluff, whereby I acknowledge that some might suspect me of dishonesty, so I deliberately poke fun at the very idea, thereby trying to head off any such suspicions at the pass, so to speak. Or, it could be a triple-bluff …

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.

You think I want to hide the past?

Never mind. No need to answer. I’ll shut up since no one wants to go where I was trying to lead.

Mark - the primary value in looking at past stupidity is to learn form it:

  • Large and vocal strands of fundamentalism have always been characterized by doctrinal confusion and theological lunacy (MacArthur and “the blood,” anyone?). So, we should endeavor to not make that mistake in the future.
  • Large and vocal strands of fundamentalism have always been characterized by in-fighting, primarily among the more shallow tributaries which use the “Big Man” model of pastoral leadership. We can learn to avoid that stupidity in our own ministries by being reminded of the excesses of the past.
  • Large and vocal strands of fundamentalism have always been characterized by shallow, blasphemous and pathetic preaching. We can do better than this.
  • etc, etc, etc …

This is the main value in re-visiting the mistakes of the past - not because we want to gleefully burn our own house down, but because we must always remind ourselves to take out the trash.

Tyler is a pastor in Olympia, WA and works in State government.