Seminaries Reluctantly Selling Their Souls

Tyler is generally correct. We have been doing online training and training “by extension” for 20 years. No, it is not better than attending classes live conducted by a prof who can be involved and interested in each student’s life. But the choice is not between the author’s ideal world or inferior online training. The choice is often between live seminary training or no training at all. In these situations online training is a great blessing. In our case the choice is either study under Dr. Jay Adams himself online, or not at all.

If we are to, per Matthew 28, make disciples in the church, I really don’t see why we ought not be developing new pastors in the churches. It seems that some specialized things—things like Hebrew and Greek—might do well with a more skilled teacher, but a lot of the pastorate is experiential. Why not OJT?

And anticipating an objection, what if pastors don’t feel competent to make such disciples….well, it strikes me in such a case that maybe their seminary education wasn’t as good as they thought it was, was it?

(crazy homeschoolers make the same point about people pointing out that public education doesn’t leave parents qualified to teach their own children….well, if my wife’s BA and my MS are inadequate to teach our children how to read, write, do arithmetic and the like, exactly why would we want to send our children to the schools that failed us?)

I don’t mean to bag on seminaries, as I benefited hugely from the presence of Central when I was a member at 4th, and I’ve been blessed by many Godly men who have attended seminary. That said, I think we need to be open to a new paradigm that doesn’t do one thing that many people have noted about seminaries; they can isolate the would-be pastor from making disciples for a number of years. “Oops.”

The author misses the point of lay people who may want to get a seminary degree. I am 44 looking to get a MDiv. If there is no online offering, my only choice is to quit my job, move my family to another location and attend a full time seminary. I like the idea of having a choice of doing it all online or doing a hybrid approach of mostly online with some getting together once in a while. Your interaction should be with your local pastor, elders and church members and finding ways to engage your own congregation with the training/learning that you are receiving.

Bert… Almost all pastors learn to be pastors in the church… That is what something called an internship is for. But the education that leads up to that? I would find it hard to find a pastor who can educate to the level of an entire staff of trained specialized and dedicated professors. Your understanding of theory vs. practice is non-existent. Your final paragraph is entirely wrong. No seminary “isolates a would-be pastor from making disciples for a number of years.” going to school doesn’t keep you from going to church or serving in a local church, it doesn’t prevent you from being an assistant pastor or a pastor even. If you are not serving in a local church in seminary that is the fault of the individual not the seminary.

I agree with Tyler. Though I do understand many professor’s concerns with not being able to interact directly with students. I also understand many institutional concerns about giving individuals a degree without insuring as much as possible that they fit the doctrinal idea of what fits your institution. I think that professors and colleges should always require as much interaction as possible, whether that is some sort of module style course work, or at least some sort of live interaction if a week long class isn’t possible.

[paynen]

Bert… Almost all pastors learn to be pastors in the church… That is what something called an internship is for. But the education that leads up to that? I would find it hard to find a pastor who can educate to the level of an entire staff of trained specialized and dedicated professors. Your understanding of theory vs. practice is non-existent. Your final paragraph is entirely wrong. No seminary “isolates a would-be pastor from making disciples for a number of years.” going to school doesn’t keep you from going to church or serving in a local church, it doesn’t prevent you from being an assistant pastor or a pastor even. If you are not serving in a local church in seminary that is the fault of the individual not the seminary.

Paynen….my comments are predicated on what I’ve heard from pastors and others who have been through seminary, and I’ve even heard the same thought expressed by Christian colleges. Yes, being isolated from making disciples is a common lament of the seminarian, and I am surprised to see you even think to contest this.

And yes, many seminary trained pastors today are unfortunately unable to pass on the basics of proper exegesis and hermeneutics, Old and New Testament theology, appreciation for the original languages, systematics, and the like….OK, so we infer that all of those experts in their seminaries have left them unable to pass these skills on to the deacons and elders at their church….this is an argument for continuing the present seminary system unchanged exactly how? Keep in mind that you cannot depend on all of your deacons and elders to be Bible college (juco seminary) trained. It’s essential for pastors to be doing this!

The comments are still wrong. I don’t care what they are predicated on. They are logically false, Seminary does not isolate anyone from making disciples. making disciples is something we are all called to do and unless we are isolated from people you can’t be isolated from making disciples. That is a sorry excuse from a lazy man, or they are just trying to make an illogical point.

You are correct, Our churches are weak in the areas of education. This is not a problem caused by colleges and seminaries. It is a problem caused by overall laziness within the church. A Pastor can and should have the ability to pass on everything a believer needs to know about faith, practice, doctrine, etc. to his congregation especially with the help of others trained to teach. In order for that to be effective two things need to happen. The pastor needs to be able to teach and understand doctrine on an academic level and has to have the leadership ability to create an environment were he can pass on what he knows. A seminary education is paramount to the academic understanding needed to properly hand down information to others. Experts teach eventual pastors, pastors teach congregations. The pastor is never going to be an expert, but due to the efforts of experts he can pass down a good amount of everything to his congregation.
The problem you are stating is not caused by seminaries. It is caused by a lack of academic thought in churches, particularly baptist ones. individuals go to seminaries not because they want to know more about God, it is because they want a signed piece of paper. The primary issue though is feelings. It is rare to find a church, a pastor, or anyone that places doctrine and the written word of God above how they feel. Even in conservative church’s good Christianity is effectively considered successful based on how people feel.

[paynen]

You are correct, Our churches are weak in the areas of education. This is not a problem caused by colleges and seminaries. It is a problem caused by overall laziness within the church. A Pastor can and should have the ability to pass on everything a believer needs to know about faith, practice, doctrine, etc. to his congregation especially with the help of others trained to teach. In order for that to be effective two things need to happen. The pastor needs to be able to teach and understand doctrine on an academic level and has to have the leadership ability to create an environment were he can pass on what he knows. A seminary education is paramount to the academic understanding needed to properly hand down information to others. Experts teach eventual pastors, pastors teach congregations. The pastor is never going to be an expert, but due to the efforts of experts he can pass down a good amount of everything to his congregation.

In most educational settings, the level of teaching is directed to a relatively intellectually-uniform cohort.

In Pre-school and/or Kindergarten? Everyone is learning their ABC’s and learning how to read. Elementary school? Everyone is learning the same (similar) introductory material. Junior high & high school? Algebra, Geometry, American Literature, etc., for all…..

Going to college, one is still (theoretically) surrounded by his/her intellectual peers (typically the upper-third to upper-half or so of high school graduates). Graduate school or professional school? Presumably the cream of college graduates.

Along the way, the coursework (again, theoretically) becomes more demanding, with a diminishing cohort of students able to keep up.

Now consider the crowd in a typical church auditorium. You might find a highly-intellectual Ph.D or M.D. seated next to someone who was/is intellectually incapable of finishing high school. Under such circumstances, teaching comes with a distinct challenge. Teach to the level of the highly-intellectual, and you can lose the less-capable. Teach to the level of the less-capable, and you may lose the attention of the more-intellectual. It can be next to impossible to effectively speak to both at once.

So taking a kid out of Chicago and sending him to a virtually all-Christian environment a few miles outside of Dunbar, Wisconsin, with limited gas money, doesn’t hurt his chances at making disciples, then?

Really, the seminary doesn’t even need to be as isolated as Northland was to cause this issue. All you need is the combination of student dorms, all Christian (at least theoretically) enrollment, ready availability of needed services on campus, a fairly heavy course load, and limited funds—all of which characterizes most seminaries. Becoming isolated from discipleship is really an occupational hazard in any Christian school.

[Bert Perry]

So taking a kid out of Chicago and sending him to a virtually all-Christian environment a few miles outside of Dunbar, Wisconsin, with limited gas money, doesn’t hurt his chances at making disciples, then?

Really, the seminary doesn’t even need to be as isolated as Northland was to cause this issue. All you need is the combination of student dorms, all Christian (at least theoretically) enrollment, ready availability of needed services on campus, a fairly heavy course load, and limited funds—all of which characterizes most seminaries. Becoming isolated from discipleship is really an occupational hazard in any Christian school.

…. no… Not a single seminary I know of has students in dorms. Colleges yes, not grad students. None of what you said really applies to the seminary student except for the heavy course load and limited funds… but those don’t really apply to isolation I mean not anymore than anything else. And even in colleges that are a little out of the way… you can still make disciples… you just have the discipline and the desire to do it. Being around college kids a lot… there a many dirt poor college kids and there are some with a bit of money… The dirt poor one’s tend to complain about lack of money way less than the ones who just want to use funds as an excuse to not do anything…. (after they buy their new iphone and that latest video game of course) You are only ever as isolated as you want to be. There is always someone unsaved around there is always people who need discipleship. If you can’t find them… you don’t want to find them.

Moody, Dallas, Northland, Summit, and SBTS don’t (didn’t for Northland I guess) have married student housing, then? But that noted, let me correct something of a false impression I gave; you don’t need all of these factors to isolate people. Any one of them will make it less likely for people to get out and make disciples. Yes, some will make heroic efforts to “get out to Dunbar”, so to speak, and sometimes that’s a good thing (souls won), but sometimes it’s a bad thing (family life trashed).

Also, if we are to blame “churches” for an often poor level of thinking, where does that leave leadership? Either leadership is responsible, and again seminary heads and search committees need to figure out what’s wrong, or leadership is not responsible, which begs the question of why church bother hiring seminary graduates.

Either way, some soul searching is necessary here, no?

great logic… you know what else makes it less likely to go out and make disciples? jobs, family, church even, Christian fellowship… literally anything that isn’t going out and witnessing to people is isolating… so based on your logic it should be eliminated… Since when is the Seminary church leadership? The seminary is a toolbox to use Tyler’s verbiage from before. Yes often many in a seminary will be in leadership positions at their local churches, but church leadership is church leadership. Its not their seminary education that has failed them if things go wrong… its their churches. Its their inability to connect academic theory with theological practice. Practical theology is our biggest weakness and that is often because Pastors tend to lock their theology tool kits up in their offices and never bring them out. This isn’t the fault of the seminary, it is a cultural phenomenon that results when a church culture minimizes what is Christianity to its basics and its do this don’t do that ideas. Deep theological truth is uninteresting to the masses, so it often isn’t used. Our churches seem to stick to the absolute basics… the love of God, be nice, gay marriage and gun hating liberals are evil.
Like I said the seminary gives you the tools. Its the internships and relationships with current pastors that teach up and coming pastors how to use them. That can’t and shouldn’t be done in a classroom. It would take a group of brilliant pastors with no fear to ever change church culture. People want what they want… and its they who have the power in a church.

Bert, while I was in seminary I worked full-time teaching computer software applications in the business world (giving me opportunities to witness to my coworkers), and was a part-time youth pastor in a local church. Pretty much all of my fellow seminarians were involved in local church ministry, so I’m not sure why you think going to seminary means you aren’t making disciples.

….is because I’ve heard it from a lot of people; that seminary can be spiritually deadly in its isolation. Now if that’s incorrect for many, that’s wonderful—I must note that Central, for example, doesn’t have student housing and most students are quite involved—but there are some cases where the structure of the school inhibits (does not prevent altogether; inhibits) discipleship.

And in that case, we’ve got to ask some questions on whether those things inhibiting us are necessary (e.g. jobs, family life) or externally imposed.

Another reason I note this is because I’ve known a few pastors for whom discipleship was an afterthought—they would do what they did in seminary, preparing for sermons for dozens of hours each week and administer the church, but you never heard from them unless they needed you to do something. That’s not entirely the fault of any one factor, let alone seminary, but sometimes these habits can be hard to unlearn.