Camper dies in swing accident at Carolina Point camp

but this needs to be said; if we are going to do things like bungee jumping, zip lines, 120’ high swings, whitewater rafting, and the like, we “fundagelicals” need to get religion on the issue of safety. Lawyers in this area salivate when they see evidence that a group has neglected basic safety measures, to put it mildly.

(this is something of an issue for me because the church I’m attending narrowly avoided having a number of funerals because kids couldn’t be bothered to portage or wear life jackets on a canoe trip….)

Prayers and condolences to the family, but let’s take basic safety seriously.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

We never had amusement park kind of rides at camp (multi-years at Boy Scout camp in my youth):

Instead:

  • Lifeguard and water safety
  • Swimming the mile (for the first time)
  • Bird merit badge
  • Et Cetera

That being said … I am praying for the Grimes family

Bert, I understand what you’re saying, but remember that people have died at amusement parks, too. We don’t know at this point if it was due to a lack of safety protocols, failure to abide by safety protocols by the staff, a camper unbuckling herself from safety equipment, equipment failure, or what.

-------
Greg Long, Ed.D. (SBTS)

Pastor of Adult Ministries
Grace Church, Des Moines, IA

Adjunct Instructor
School of Divinity
Liberty University

[Greg Long]

Bert, I understand what you’re saying, but remember that people have died at amusement parks, too. We don’t know at this point if it was due to a lack of safety protocols, failure to abide by safety protocols by the staff, a camper unbuckling herself from safety equipment, equipment failure, or what.

Yes, they have, and it’s worth noting that when it does happen at such a place, there is a big to-do where you go through 8ds, FMEAs, and all kinds of things to make as certain as possible it doesn’t happen again. Hopefully it happens. If it doesn’t, lawyers will be loaded for bear the next time it happens, and if they don’t deal with it, it WILL happen again. It’s a question off when, not if.

One big reason I’m a bit intense here is because I’ve seen too many cases where people just “blew off” basic safety issues in our circles. Electrical panels blocked by cleaning chemicals (in NEC since 1899, BTW), laughing at kids not wearing life vests and such, not terribly concerned about making sure kids’ workers have background checks, and the like. My daughters noted that people responded to the incident on the river with “well, you could die driving”.

Well, yes, but we don’t tell drivers not to sweat not using a seat belt, or encourage them to knock back a few drinks before taking the wheel, do we? Using a life vest and portaging around rapids are every bit as basic as buckling up and driving sober. There are points where we’ve really got to get our safety thinking caps on.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

[Bert Perry]

One big reason I’m a bit intense here is because I’ve seen too many cases where people just “blew off” basic safety issues in our circles.

I saw an instance in the late 90’s where a Baptist church was needing to get its youth group to an event 150 miles away. The group was larger than the 15 passengers their van would seat, so what did they do? They took out a couple of the bench seats and had a bunch of kids just sit loose (unbuckled) on the floor! 150 miles each way, @ 70 mph down the highway…

They made it both ways w/o incident, but what would have happened in a crash or a rollover? (Shudder…)

(BTW, I voiced my concern to the pastor, who simply shrugged it off.)

Tragic accidents are one thing, but “accidents just waiting to happen” are another.

Now I’m going to be fair here; I do not know and likely never will know whether the camp was negligent here. But that said, those who are concerned about safety might do well to read this, and any church that still uses vans to transport people (adult or child) needs to take a look here. I don’t know whether churches, camps, and schools are “behind the ball” here, but we can definitely improve.

Side note; vans are a big deal because they put a lot of weight over the rear wheels (increased risk of blowout) and have both a short wheelbase and a high center of mass—the classic failure mode is rear wheel blowout. You get more tire failure, and when it happens, it’s a much bigger (more lethal) deal than with a passenger car, minivan, or SUV. Had the situation Larry describes gone bad, you’re talking about at least half a dozen fatalities as kids would have been thrown from the vehicle before the vehicle rolled over them.

Churches, and their affiliated camps and schools, need to get a handle on issues like this, unless we desire to hand over the keys to the facility to a plaintiff’s lawyer after a tragedy.

Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.

What do you suggest? Chuck Phelps’ church rented professional tour buses (I think they rented them…they were certainly professional sized tour buses), and for whatever reason there was a major accident and we all know what happened!

This was at a Young Life camp, which is by NO MEANS a fundamentalist organization.

Young Life is a big movement with teens and college aged people. Does anyone out there have information about them other than what is on their website? Any past dealings with them?

I have attended a few meetings they have had on campus, and I can’t decide. They brought in speakers from Focus on the Family to talk about sexual issues for single adults, but they are deliberately vague on their statement of faith (ie we seek to improve the lives of all youth, etc. The name of Jesus is not overtly mentioned at all in the website, or at any meeting I went to.)

[Mark_Smith]…. but they are deliberately vague on their statement of faith (ie we seek to improve the lives of all youth, etc. The name of Jesus is not overtly mentioned at all in the website, or at any meeting I went to.)

https://www.younglife.org/About/Pages/StatementOfFaith.aspx

Young Life’s Statement of Faith
Preamble

We the members of the Young Life mission – trustees, staff, instructors at Young Life schools and volunteers – join together in our affirmation of the following articles and our central purpose of proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ and introducing adolescents everywhere to Jesus Christ and helping them grow in their faith.

Article I

The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, being given by divine inspiration, are the Word of God, the final and supreme authority in all matters of faith and conduct.

Article II

In the Scriptures, God reveals Himself as the living and true God, Creator of all things. Perfect in love and righteous in all His ways, this one God exists eternally as a Trinity of persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Article III

God made man and woman in His image that He might have fellowship with us. Being estranged from God by our disobedience, we are, as sinful people, incapable of a right relationship to God apart from divine grace.

Article IV

The only Mediator between God and all human beings is Jesus Christ our Lord, God’s eternal Son, who as man fully shared and fulfilled our humanity in a life of perfect obedience.

Article V

By His death in our place, Jesus revealed the divine love and upheld divine justice, removing our guilt and reconciling us to God. Having risen bodily from the dead and ascended into heaven, He rules as Lord over all and intercedes for us as our Great High Priest.

Article VI

The Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the Gospel, renews our hearts, persuading us to repent of our sins and confess Jesus as Lord. By the same Spirit we are led to trust in divine mercy, whereby we are forgiven all our sins, justified by faith through the merit of Christ our Savior, adopted into God’s family as His children and enabled so to live in the world that all people may see our good works and the Gospel of grace at work in our lives and glorify our Father who is in heaven.

Article VII

God, by His Word and Spirit, calls us as sinful people into the fellowship of Christ’s body. Thus He creates the one holy, catholic and apostolic church, united in the bonds of love, endowed with the gifts of the Spirit and summoned by Christ to preach the Gospel and to administer the sacraments, to carry on the ministry of reconciliation, to relieve human need and to strive for social justice.

Article VIII

God’s redemptive purpose will be consummated by the return of Christ to raise the dead, judge all people and establish His glorious kingdom. Those who are apart from Christ shall be eternally separated from God’s presence, but the redeemed shall live and reign with Him forever.

[Mark_Smith]

What do you suggest? Chuck Phelps’ church rented professional tour buses (I think they rented them…they were certainly professional sized tour buses), and for whatever reason there was a major accident and we all know what happened!

All I’m saying is that churches shouldn’t blithely flout safety concerns. The Phelps’ incident was a tragic accident. Like I said, “Tragic accidents are one thing, but “accidents just waiting to happen” are another.”

Cramming & overloading about 26 people into a van designed for 15, with a majority of them sitting unrestrained on the floor, is on the other hand an example of an “accident just waiting to happen.” It shows an utter disregard for safety concerns. As Bert pointed out, if a serious accident with injuries or deaths were to occur under such circumstances, that church would be criminally liable.

[Mark_Smith]

This was at a Young Life camp, which is by NO MEANS a fundamentalist organization.

Somewhat of a generalization because Y/L has a campus ministry and Kru has a H.S. ministry but: Young Life is to High Schools what Campus Crusade is to Colleges

Neither are fundamentalist organizations. But again speaking generally (Larry Nelson had an article about this!): Fundamentalism has largely ignored the public schools and secular colleges

is all over campuses. And go to a meeting…there is little mention of Jesus. The adult mentors are too often from liberal leaning churches.

Jim, have you attended a Young Life meeting?