The "philosophy and practice of comprehensive, age-segregated, programmatic youth ministry" is "contrary to the ministry patterns of Christ"

Regarding the age based segregation, I echo both Bryan and Aaron’s assessment. The church is the organized assembly of worshipers. I know that not all “family-integrated” people must be this way, but what I have seen is a pervading mindset that the family is more important than the church and in the end, those churches draw and attract young to middle-aged families. The abolition of age based ministry would completely destroy the work God is building in our church. Maybe that is because we are a new church and many of the ones attending are newly saved and are eating up the ministry of the word. Without a nursery, without a Bible time for their kids, they would not attend (yes I know that from their own testimonies). We are a small church and have no desire to become a large church (we would rather start many different small churches and widen our web, but that is a different topic). We begin age-based ministries because of need, not tradition. Sometimes we join the youth with the adults, for half of the year, our kid’s program and youth program on Sunday nights gathers with the entire church. We encourage teachers to rotate through different age levels, We encourage youth activities where the parents are involved in the activities—different parents plan and organize both ministry and fun activities, under the supervision of youth leaders. IOW, there are ways to promote unity and age diversity without canceling “junior church”, Kid’s programs, and youth. The main priority must be the main priority. To edify the entire body by exalting Christ to the glory of God. As pastor, I seek to rotate through each group yearly both kids and adults. I just finished a series on Sunday nights with the teens, next I will be teaching a class on Bible interpretation with the adults, and after that, I will be helping with our kid’s program (we call it grace builders). This way, I can help pastor the entire body. (sorry I got of rambling there).

What Susan describes as her experience is despicable in my eyes. I am not sure that churches root problem was the youth ministry or children’s ministry, but rather a leadership problem. My anecdotal evidence is different. I have been involved in four churches in my life. Grew up in one, moved to another town after graduation, served in a church in college and now pastor a church (before pastoring, I was “all-around” guy—children, youth, music, etc… it was a small church). Each of these ministries, I thank God was nothing like what Susan describes, (I hope you know Susan, I am not impugning you but rather that youth ministry you mentioned sounds awful and if that is what I had… I don’t know what I would think of youth groups today). Instead, we blended ministry to different age groups (the youth went to minister to the elderly of the church. The youth helped teach in the kid’s programs. The youth helped in ministries of the church being paired with older Christians in the different functions). I guess I was raised in a bubble that was not afflicted with those program based youth and children’s ministries.

Idolatry is idolatry whether that idol is the youth group or the family unit. Whether it is the pastors or the fathers, whether it is fun or feeling of superiority because we don’t participate in that fun. We as servants of God are seeking to walk the right path down the center, not the one on the right side or left side.

My two cents… I haven’t posted in SI for a long time, but had a few minutes today, God bless.

I’ve heard with my own two God-given ears that it is good for kid to be separate from their parents at church so they can be exposed to a variety of ideas other than what their parents are teaching them.

Actually, I think would agree w/the idea that kids benefit from learning things other than what their parents are teaching them.
I still have difficulty articulating this point when it comes up, but I’ll give it a go. The church is a body (Rom.12, 1 Cor 12) in which the members edify one another and, therefore, the members need one another. The Body is not an extension of the home.
Add to that the fact that this one-another ministry (Col. 3.16 comes to mind, and Eph.4.11-16 or so) is not anywhere constricted to “one another among adults” or “one another within families.” So my reasoning is that if we are commanded to do this for each other—kids too—it must cross family lines and it must be good for kids to have the benefit of this learning. On one hand, that rattles me as a parent because I’d love to be in control of everything my kids are learning. On the other hand, this appears to be God’s model and I have to trust Him with the results.
…and it doesn’t take a great deal of imagination for me to think of scenarios where others’ teaching is making up for deficiencies in my own.

Edit: Matthew J… appreciate hearing your experience. Takes it out of the abstract a bit. My own experiences w/youth groups growing up were not quite so positive, but not terrible either.
I should probably also mention that I don’t think it’s good for youth to be always separated in ministry. There needs to be together time for sure and when we cannot do both at Grace, we are together.

Aaron- I agree, and I can see that I wasn’t clear. What I heard was that it was good for kids to hear other ideas, as in beliefs that are in contradiction to what a parent is teaching their child. For instance, it’s good for homeschooled kids to hear objections to homeschooling, for children who aren’t allowed to watch tv to hear why tv viewing isn’t bad, for kids whose families listen to CCM to hear why all CCM is bad, and so forth. Whatever you believe about those topics, it is not the place of the SS teacher to contradict the parents about their lifestyle choices that are not in direct contradiction to Scripture. Period.

But if we are talking about hearing truth in different formats or perspectives, then I’m all for that. I had a “Duh!” moment just awhile ago listening to Dr. Bauder talk about the temptation of Christ. I’ve heard that passage read and preached on about a gazillion times, and have read it myself over 100 times, and yet ideas occurred to me that had never dawned on me before hearing his perspective. But he is teaching undeniable truth, not how he feels about Christmas trees and movie theatres.

I suppose it is good to discuss this, so here is a little more of the material referenced in the article above.

http://www.ncfic.org/articlemodule/view_article/id/128/src/@random49598…

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=31609151194

Again, I think these issues need a good measure of balance and the artful implementation of Biblical wisdom, and are open to a great deal of misunderstanding if we get focused on semantics.

Most IFB‘ers are not going to go the Vision Forum route on family-integration.

But can we agree that there are some gross distortions in our churches which need to be cleaned up?

What do the kids in my church learn from kiddie church? I do not know the complete answer to that — but one thing I know they are learning for sure: Right before the sermon, you get up out of your seat and RUUUUUN for the door, pushing and shoving to get out as soon as possible!!!

Boy, there is a good and Godly life-lesson that will come in handy in adulthood!!!

I would’ve done that just one time as a kid… :>)

(P.S. - I remember a sermon by Allister Begg in which he talked about his dismay when this happened to him one time right before he preached. He told the story in a humorous way, but it illustrated the point of how absurd it is to dismiss all the young people just in time for the preaching of the Word of God.)

[Greg Long] Susan, I was part of a youth group that God used to plant within my heart a desire for full-time ministry through Christian service opportunities, teen-led church services, missions trips, and yes, even good, clean, Christian fellowship (read: fun).

Greg—thanks for your testimony here. Until you posted this, I was worried that the the (inflated) rhetoric of this thread lacked balance, reporting only the the failures of “youth group” ministry. I agree with Greg’s point. Done correctly, the “traditional” model of youth ministry can be an effective tool for discipleship, one that created unity among age groups rather than division. [Greg’s family lived up the street from my family in Toledo.]

I hope we are not confusing Bible principles with Bible teaching methods. While it is helpful for teachers to “teach as Christ taught,” we should be careful to emphasize that the New Testament does not mandate a particular method of teaching, neither does it mandate a particular age grouping. Different churches will answer this question differently, depending on the context of their own ministry.

Children learn differently than teens and adults learn. A wise teacher will become a student of the way people learn. And there is benefit to studying the order in which we teach the hierarchy of Biblical truth. In the process of moving from milk to meat, there are many good reasons to group the milk drinkers in one group and the meat eaters in another.

If we are able to agree on these relatively simple ideas, we can better understand what originally led to carefully-considered, age-appropriate curriculum groupings. Detractors may call this “age group segregation,” but this strikes me as an emotionally-charged phrase designed to stifle discussion.

[Susan R] Aaron- I agree, and I can see that I wasn’t clear. What I heard was that it was good for kids to hear other ideas, as in beliefs that are in contradiction to what a parent is teaching their child. For instance, it’s good for homeschooled kids to hear objections to homeschooling, for children who aren’t allowed to watch tv to hear why tv viewing isn’t bad, for kids whose families listen to CCM to hear why all CCM is bad, and so forth. Whatever you believe about those topics, it is not the place of the SS teacher to contradict the parents about their lifestyle choices that are not in direct contradiction to Scripture. Period.

Susan, I feel that the possibility of parental “contradiction” by SS teachers is sometimes caused by unskilled parents who wrongly conflate family conviction with Biblical mandate. (Sometimes! I agree that in other cases, SS teachers dig themselves into holes.)

The SS teacher is sometimes painted into a corner by parents who disagree among themselves on what you call “lifestyle choices.” Because the parents never figured out how to articulate and resolve these differences, the teacher is set up for failure. Any time a parent communicates a personal family conviction as if it is the only valid Biblical position for every family to take, the church body is headed for conflict. Gonna boil over somewhere, perhaps during youth time.

I’m okay with my kids hanging out with No TV Families, Harry Potter Families, No Plastic Weapons families, and even Culotte Families. And I would ask them to respect house rules whenever necessary. But when we start to mandate these rules at church (or prevent SS teachers from addressing them), I get itchy.

[KevinM] I was worried that the the (inflated) rhetoric of this thread lacked balance, reporting only the the failures of “youth group” ministry

Would you please point out the ‘inflated rhetoric’ of which you speak? I’m worried that we won’t be able to discuss the issues at hand and be honest about our experiences, lest we be accused of insincerity or exaggeration.

[KevinM] Susan, I feel that the possibility of parental “contradiction” by SS teachers is sometimes caused by unskilled parents who wrongly conflate family conviction with Biblical mandate. (Sometimes! I agree that in other cases, SS teachers dig themselves into holes.)

The SS teacher is sometimes painted into a corner by parents who disagree among themselves on what you call “lifestyle choices.” Because the parents never figured out how to articulate and resolve these differences, the teacher is set up for failure. Any time a parent communicates a personal family conviction as if it is the only valid Biblical position for every family to take, the church body is headed for conflict. Gonna boil over somewhere, perhaps during youth time.

Bro. Kevin, do you believe the average SS teacher in the average church is equipped to set themselves up as an authority that supersedes that of the parent? What skills do most SS teachers possess? Are they required to have divinity and education degrees in your church?

I believe there is a danger when a SS/YG teacher contradicts a directive from the parent, regardless of how the teacher might feel about it- as long what the children are being taught at home is not in violation of clear cut Bible doctrine, and isn’t immoral, unethical, or illegal. If it is, then the teacher and the church leadership should address the issue with the parent, not the child.

Parents make all sorts of ‘extra-Biblical’ decisions- but are they always conflating family conviction with Biblical mandates, or expecting every other parent in the church to abide by their position? Can we not have mutual respect for other lifestyle choices (that aren’t sinful)? Unless they are trying to cause division, it isn’t anyone else’s business whether they watch tv or not, wear cullottes or not, homeschool or not… and Sunday School or youth groups is not the appropriate venue for a teacher to present to children their personal beliefs on those discretionary topics. There is enough Bible for us to study without trying to invade or cause confusion in the private lives of families.

I’m okay with my kids hanging out with No TV Families, Harry Potter Families, No Plastic Weapons families, and even Culotte Families. And I would ask them to respect house rules whenever necessary. But when we start to mandate these rules at church (or prevent SS teachers from addressing them), I get itchy.

We hang out with a wide variety of people as well- but none of them have permission to undermine our authority with our children, not even the grandparents. That makes me itchy.

In summary- The Biblical pattern evident is gender segregation, not age segregation. I agree that age segregation is sometimes appropriate, but I believe it is too often the default.

[Paul J. Scharf] Again, I think these issues need a good measure of balance and the artful implementation of Biblical wisdom, and are open to a great deal of misunderstanding if we get focused on semantics.

Most IFB‘ers are not going to go the Vision Forum route on family-integration.

But can we agree that there are some gross distortions in our churches which need to be cleaned up?

What do the kids in my church learn from kiddie church? I do not know the complete answer to that — but one thing I know they are learning for sure: Right before the sermon, you get up out of your seat and RUUUUUN for the door, pushing and shoving to get out as soon as possible!!!

Boy, there is a good and Godly life-lesson that will come in handy in adulthood!!!

I would’ve done that just one time as a kid… :>)

(P.S. - I remember a sermon by Allister Begg in which he talked about his dismay when this happened to him one time right before he preached. He told the story in a humorous way, but it illustrated the point of how absurd it is to dismiss all the young people just in time for the preaching of the Word of God.)

I agree, Bro. Paul, that there are some methodologies we’ve taken for granted that need to be seriously re-examined. For instance, many programs for young kids are primarily game oriented- but my 8 yob can sit still while I read a chapter out of Mere Christianity and even explain back to me what I’ve read. AAMOF, he recently got under conviction while I was reading from this book and received Christ as his Savior. I didn’t even give him a lollipop. We SO underestimate our kids. They are bright and creative, and respond positively to challenges. We do them a disservice when we treat them as if all they can grasp are one-syllable words and nonsense songs.

[Susan R] Bro. Kevin, do you believe the average SS teacher in the average church is equipped to set themselves up as an authority that supersedes that of the parent? What skills do most SS teachers possess? Are they required to have divinity and education degrees in your church?

I believe there is a danger when a SS/YG teacher contradicts a directive from the parent, regardless of how the teacher might feel about it- as long what the children are being taught at home is not in violation of clear cut Bible doctrine, and isn’t immoral, unethical, or illegal. If it is, then the teacher and the church leadership should address the issue with the parent, not the child.

I don’t think that “setting up against authority” is what Kevin has in mind… or is very likely to happen. What I mean is, I don’t really have authority over what my kids believe, only what they do. I teach them and hope they believe, but I don’t have the authority to insist on belief (and belief being what it is, it can’t be enforced). So in a classroom situation the worst case scenario is a teacher who says “I don’t believe what your parents have taught you is true.” In that case, what has happened is a problem of respect rather than a problem of authority. The SS teacher has the authority to teach what he/she believes is true, but it’s simply not polite (biblically ungracious) to put it in those terms. [Edit: I’m talking about matters of conscience here… if a kids parents are denying the trinity I say “Teachers, straighten them out if you can.”]

When I was teaching school I had to deal with some of these things a little bit. Usually, I would teach principles and applications and there was no opportunity for anything approaching “you have been taught but I say unto you…” in reference to parents. But sometimes we would do Q & A days and kids would say “My parents say this, is that right?” Immediately I know I have a delicate situation. Doubly so in the church setting when that happens.
What I encourage teachers to do when it comes up is put things in terms of “This is what I believe and why. I’m not going to tell you your parents are wrong.”
In some cases, I just didn’t go there at all. The question was not important. So the answer is simply “Things like that are for your family to decide and eventually you yourself. It doesn’t matter what I think about that.”
Even as a pastor I’ve done that a few times. Not my job to do everyone’s thinking for them!

I think Kevin would agree—and it sounded so from his earlier posts—that in the vast majority of these ‘house rules’ situations, teachers do not need to go there. Stick to principles. Kids will make up their own minds about things either way.

Susan, I just want to make sure that you understand I’m not in favor of a Sunday school teacher who sets himself or herself up as an authority that supersedes that of a parent. I don’t really think I suggested that in my original post.

And just to clarify, it was not my intention to say parents are “always” conflating family conviction with Biblical mandates. My intention was to suggest that this sometimes happens, and when it does happen, the Sunday school teacher finds himself in an awkward situation.

I think it was fair for me to suggest this thread suffers from inflated rhetoric. Susan—when I wrote about parents who “conflate family conviction with Biblical mandate,” I surrounded it with two uses of the word “sometimes.” But your response clipped these off and inserted the word “always.”

Whew. I think there might be a ray of hope. How can we help our churches here?

I think the solution involves some sort of discipling and mentoring for Sunday school teachers AND parents. If both groups have a healthy dose of intellectual humility (recognizing that our fallen intellect is capable of errors in discernment), the relationship can be mutually beneficial. I hope that our Sunday school teachers can not only teach the Word, but also point the learner to valid Bible applications.

When all of this works well, it works VERY well, which is something Greg and I were trying to inject into the discussion. One would hope that in a church characterized by mutual respect, a teacher would be able to make specific Scriptural applications without fearing they have contradicted a parent’s house rules.

(Small disclosure for Susan, since we have not met. My wife and I taught in Christian schools for twelve years and then I served as a worship/youth pastor for another ten. We now homeschool our children and attend a church with a “traditional” youth ministry that includes public, Christian, and homeschool kids. The parents get along pretty well. I spend my days cooped up in a small office, pounding out words for a company that offers a well-known line of “age appropriate” Sunday school curriculum.)

[Aaron Blumer] When I was teaching school I had to deal with some of these things a little bit. Usually, I would teach principles and applications and there was no opportunity for anything approaching “you have been taught but I say unto you…” in reference to parents. But sometimes we would do Q & A days and kids would say “My parents say this, is that right?” Immediately I know I have a delicate situation. Doubly so in the church setting when that happens. I think Kevin would agree—and it sounded so from his earlier posts—that in the vast majority of these ‘house rules’ situations, teachers do not need to go there. Stick to principles. Kids will make up their own minds about things either way.

Yes! And, kids being kids, sometimes they will ask the Sunday school teacher a tough question while conveniently forgetting to disclose the part about “My parents say this”! Wise Sunday school teachers learn to recognize these traps. Eventually. Hopefully, the teacher can emphasize parental obedience (now) while equipping the child to exercise spiritual discernment when they reach adulthood.

I think the solution involves some sort of discipling and mentoring for Sunday school teachers AND parents. If both groups have a healthy dose of intellectual humility (recognizing that our fallen intellect is capable of errors in discernment), the relationship can be mutually beneficial. I hope that our Sunday school teachers can not only teach the Word, but also point the learner to valid Bible applications.

I agree, but this is not the norm in my experience. What I’ve seen is “We need a teacher for the 4th grade boys- oh, you’d like to volunteer? Good- you can start next week.” I think Ken Ham referred to it as the Warm Body Method- if you have a pulse and aren’t drooling, you can teach a class. I would be very VERY supportive and excited about strict and positive standards becoming the norm for SS teachers and YG leaders. In another thread, Bro. Dave mentioned that they prefer couples that serve together to teach classes- I think this a helpful dynamic that solves quite a few problems and further encourages families to serve together. Equipping parents is not only essential but should also be a primary goal of our churches.

When it comes to questions from kids, even if they are trying to be ‘tricky’, the SS teacher or YG leader can still err on the side of respect and discretion, recognizing that children may try to pit the authority figures in their lives against each other. If a young person says “What do you think about ___?” then the teacher can ask “What do you parents think about ___?” Depending on the child’s answer, the teacher can 1) encourage the child to talk to their parents first 2) support whatever the child says their parents are teaching them 3) if it is in error, say something like “I’ll have to think about that” and talk to the parents first. It is never a good idea to answer when you have only heard ‘one side’ (Proverbs 18:13). I’ve handled questions this way for years, and have never had it not work out to the benefit of the family. Or, as Aaron suggested, say “Things like that are for your family to decide and eventually you yourself. It doesn’t matter what I think about that.” The Biblical commands about teaching children are overwhelmingly directed at parents, so that should remain the preeminent method in our homes and churches.

I know it is by now quite a bit off topic, but can I ask what people think about Young Adults ministries? What I mean is, as this author concludes, YG has failed, just look at the results. But isn’t that hard to say without asking why Young Adults do not stay? The Young Adults ministry I am involved with is hovering right around 200. When my wife and I started attending around July/August, it was about 150, and 1 year ago, they said was about 100. Now I know part of it is a snow ball effect; once you get the momentum it gains speed. But why do some churches Young Adults groups grow and others do not. And I am not looking for, they are compromising, because I do not believe the YA community I am a part of is compromising. (They actually practiced church discipline earlier this year.)

Is the lack of youth involvement after HS due to age-segregation or a combination of bad age-segregation and no support for YA? (probably other things also, but those come to mind)

[Daniel] But why do some churches Young Adults groups grow and others do not.

Generally, if you live in a town where people come to for college and stick around afterward, you have a good YA ministry. If not, then you don’t. I’m sure there are a few more spiritual reasons as well, but the primary need is a large pool of individuals without roots in the community looking to connect with other people through a church organization.