3 Bad Reasons to Leave Your Church
You are parsing my verb too tight.
“Feel” is a euphemism in contemporary English for reasoned, thought, consider, feel, opinioned etc…It isn’t just emotion.
You can’t use “pure logic” or “pure Bible interpretation” on the totality of the music issue because it is so convoluted and broad. For example, Psalm 150 mentions many music instruments and Psalm 149 mentions praising Him with dancing.
But is all dancing and all type of music permissible then? That is interpretation.
So, my thought is to let people leave over music if it matters that much to them if they want without casting them out as divisive.
[Mark_Smith]You are parsing my verb too tight.
“Feel” is a euphemism in contemporary English for reasoned, thought, consider, feel, opinioned etc…It isn’t just emotion.
In my experience, about 98% of the time a Christian uses the verb “feel’ to describe an emotional response to something, not a reasoned response. This includes most of the time people object to music with drums, guitars, or a discernable beat. The church needs to grow up in this regard. Temple worship included percussive music and dance, by which we ought to infer that whatever music they used, it often had a beat. I understand the response of the Reformers to the abuses of Rome, but hey, it’s been 500 years now. We can figure out a Biblical approach to music, and should.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
The point is if a person goes to a church service and doesn’t like the music, they can leave. Period. If it is CCM and they want hymns OR is they play hymns and want CCM.
A person who leaves XYZ Church is NOT abandoning the gospel or abandoning the body of Christ like the original piece implies.
Go where you want.
“Modern Christians can easily acknowledge that the color of socks or hose that we chose to wear today is a matter of moral adiaphora. Modern Christians must also recognize that some matters we have held in the category of objectively “right” or “wrong” may really be “inconsequential.” By making this admission, we are not joining the ranks of post-modern relativists. Relativists think all moral decisions are relative—that there is no absolute right or wrong. Biblical Christians acknowledge three moral categories: right, wrong, and adiaphora. We should have biblical warrant before we begin denouncing certain behaviors as evil or wrong—especially in the realm of Christian cultural expression.
An example will help illustrate this point. I recently had a conversation with a very devout Christian man who was fully convinced that the beat of a musical drum was evil and aroused sinful passions in those who heard it. I also recently returned from Africa, where the only instrument in some worship services was a drum. I do not find a biblical warrant for considering the beat of a drum Satanic. It seems to me that styles of musical expression are culturally conditioned and are in the realm of adiaphora. Nevertheless, it is possible for certain cultures to have negative and sinful associations with styles of music—and in that case, even though the music itself is morally neutral, the “strong” Christians who recognize that fact should willingly forego using that style of music out of concern for the “weak” Christians who associate it with immoral or sinful expressions.
At this point, in reading a draft of my article, a pastor-friend of mine raised a number of significant questions. I quote from his email below:
I agree with the underlying principle [of the strong giving up permitted freedoms for the sake of the weak]. I believe it is biblical. Yet I find that in practice it is sometimes difficult to discern how this principle should be lived out in the church. Would you actually say that if a Christian with the convictions of the man in your illustration joins a church in which drums are used in worship, then the church should stop using drums? What should a pastor do if many in his church want to use praise songs in worship, but there is one who claims that he can’t worship using such songs “because they are not reverent enough?” What do we say to the Christian brother or sister who would say that men should come to church in ties, because not to do so is to not give God the proper respect. I suppose the crux of my problem is that the weak can end up being legalistic tyrants who become intent on forcing others to live according to their view of right and wrong.
A number of things can be said in response to these relevant questions. First, if we are going to find strict parallels with the situation in Corinth, we need to discuss a behavior (1) which is in itself morally inconsequential, (2) which some persons view as morally wrong, and (3) which by some persons engaging in this behavior, others will be tempted to “join in” and do something they consider wrong. When it comes to current issues of Christian cultural expression in America, these three conditions are rarely met. More often, there is a group of Christians that disapproves or dislikes another group’s activity, but they are not themselves being tempted to do something they consider wrong. If there is a temptation they face, it is one of seeing the speck of sawdust in their brother’s eye, while neglecting the plank in their own. In this case, Jesus’ instructions to remove the plank first so that they will see more clearly their brother’s speck seem appropriate (Matt 7:3-5). (In other words, the so-called “weak” Christians are not struggling with sin and a “weak” conscience. In reality, their problem is a condemning spirit.)
Second, let me address my friend’s hypothetical scenario—what if the antidrum Christian came to my church and insisted that we shut down the praise band? First, I would graciously acknowledge to the man that he may be right about the drums and ask him to explain fully his position and the evidence for it. If I remained unconvinced, I would ask the man, “You say that drums lead to Satanic temptation. What, in fact, are you being tempted to do when you hear the drums?” If he said, “Well, when I hear the drums, I feel an almost irresistible urge to tear off my clothes and start assaulting people with hymn books,” I would agree to cancel the drums for the service. If, however, his objection really boiled down to a matter of aesthetic taste, or even an imagined temptation that others would experience, I would not see a biblical warrant for allowing his personal preference to dictate the worship style of the church. I might also point out to this man, that Christians are not to put hindrances in the way of the gospel for non-believers (1 Cor 9:12). And, while using only the organ may appeal musically to some people, for others, the antiquated style of music would put an unnecessary cultural barrier in the way of hearing the gospel.”
http://www.sbts.edu/media/publications/sbjt/sbjt_2002fall5.pdf
[Mark_Smith]You can’t use “pure logic” or “pure Bible interpretation” on the totality of the music issue because it is so convoluted and broad. For example, Psalm 150 mentions many music instruments and Psalm 149 mentions praising Him with dancing.
But is all dancing and all type of music permissible then? That is interpretation.
You are bordering on saying Scripture isn’t sufficient to address the music issue so we have to seek some answers elsewhere. I understand what you are trying to say, but I would suggest focusing on what Scripture does say about music rather than what it does not say. My interpretation and your interpretation doesn’t matter….what does the text say? Concerning whether all dancing or all types of music are permissible, we are only limited by what Scripture addresses as the purposes of music. Ephesisans 5 says we use music to address each other, to make melody in our heart to the Lord, and for giving of thanks to God. Colossians 3 says we use music to learn and teach Scripture by letting it dwell in us abundantly, for teaching and admonishing each other, and again for thanksgiving. I Corinthians 14 tells us that singing should be with understanding that we may be edified. Any music that does these things would certainly be permissible. Does that mean that all music is best in every situation? No, it does not. Hymns may accomplish these things better with the people in your church, while Shai Linne or Lecrae would not be understandable in that setting. Therefore, use hymns. However, Shai Linne and Lecrae would do a much better job in other situations than a hymn could ever hope to achieve. In either case, I do not see where either hymns or Shai Linne/Lecrae violates what Scripture commands but there is a “best” setting for both. You can do the same thing with dancing. What does Scripture say about it? Is it limited by Scripture? Is it condoned by Scripture? Does it violate other principles of Scripture?
My point…What the text actually says is much more important than my interpretation, my good intentions, or my extra-biblical preconceptions.
[Chip Van Emmerik]Joel Shaffer wrote:
“So I am sorry if I am not sympathetic to the view that one group of believers in a church has the right to trample the consciences of other believers in a church with their demands to do whatever they want with instruments and call it worship music.”
To reverse your statement, do you and other like-minded believers have the right to trample the consciences of other believers in a church with your demands to only do hymns or music without much instrumentation?
Joel, this statement is not reversible. In one direction (the first) a Christian is being asked to violate his conscience before God in order to accommodate his fellow believers. But I have never heard a CCM advocate of any stripe claim his conscience was being violated to sing traditional worship music. His claim is always that it is a preference.
Actually I know several Christian evangelicals that either used to be in the more KJVO, legalistic stripe of Christian fundamentalists where CCM music was considered evil as well as more high church Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran. or Congregationalist that happen to be very liberal in their theology. Their consciences were violated by traditional hymns/worship style because it reminds them too much of either the toxic legalism that they came from in the fundamentalist camp or their liberal background without any trace of the gospel. As they grow in Christ, they eventually view more traditional worship as more of a preference, however……..
[Mark_Smith]The point is if a person goes to a church service and doesn’t like the music, they can leave. Period. If it is CCM and they want hymns OR is they play hymns and want CCM.
A person who leaves XYZ Church is NOT abandoning the gospel or abandoning the body of Christ like the original piece implies.
Go where you want.
Yes, but there is another way of seeing it. I would argue that, absent a clear connection with idol worship and the like, there is no sin issue with the use of modern music and a wide range of instruments—and quite frankly, I do not know of that clear connection with idol worship. However, there IS a clear sin in splitting the Church needlessly—I know we have and treasure the principle of separation, but that is really supposed to be for Gospel issues, is it not?
That’s why I plead for people to start understanding the principles of music and verse instead of talking about things like evil drums. We can coexist if only we grow up a little.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
OK
Psalm 149:3 says to praise Him with the dance, with tambourines and harps.
Does your church do that?
If so, how? Is some activity over the line? If so, why? If not, why not?
If you don’t why are you ignoring such a clear verse of Scripture?
All I am saying is this, and ONLY THIS. Got it?
If I attend a church service that has music I don’t like, for WHATEVER REASON, I am free to leave and that doesn’t make me divisive.
[Mark_Smith]All I am saying is this, and ONLY THIS. Got it?
If I attend a church service that has music I don’t like, for WHATEVER REASON, I am free to leave and that doesn’t make me divisive.
But is that really true, Mark? Let us posit a church that is fundamental in doctrine—the real five fundamentals—that holds to a Baptistic understanding of ordinances and church offices and a cessationist understanding of the early church charismata. Let us assume that this church teaches the Gospel and actively separates from those who compromise—Elephant Room 2 got everything by Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald thrown out posthaste. It is local to you (or me), and has a good reputation in the community. We’re talking “authentic fundamentalism” a la Pastor MacLachlan, Bauder, and the like. (or whoever you would choose)
Tragically, however, they use “Breathe” or “Shine Jesus shine” during Sunday meeting—and I detest both songs, so this is no mere rhetorical flourish. Are we free to just walk away, or would God be more glorified if we stuck it out to see if we could encourage something better and more Biblical?
I’ll be honest; my take is the latter. I’ve left churches for some reasons, but when I leave a church for reasons other than “I am moving to a different city”, what I am saying is very stark; I do not believe that church leadership is qualified, Biblically. I think to do things for lesser reasons is really to be….I’m sorry….divisive in this regard.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Mark_Smith]OK
Psalm 149:3 says to praise Him with the dance, with tambourines and harps.
Does your church do that?
If so, how? Is some activity over the line? If so, why? If not, why not?
If you don’t why are you ignoring such a clear verse of Scripture?
Actually, you are making my point. What does the text say? It says for Israel to praise him with dancing:
Psa 149:1-3 Praise the LORD! Sing to the LORD a new song, his praise in the assembly of the godly! (2) Let Israel be glad in his Maker; let the children of Zion rejoice in their King! (3) Let them praise his name with dancing, making melody to him with tambourine and lyre!
This is not a requirement for the church. However, that also does not mean that it is a prohibition. This was something that honored the Lord when Israel did this. The interesting thing is that there was also dancing in pagan worship and Israel sinfully danced before the golden calf. Was the dancing sinful? No, but worshipping idols with dancing was sinful. However, worshipping God with dancing was not sinful.
Like I said before, looking at what the text actually says solves these issues.
Well, “Shine Jesus Shine” is a fine song IMHO. Always liked it. If you don’t, so be it.
The point is if you don’t like it and songs like it, and that is all they sing there, move on.
And if you don’t think that is ok, why is it ok to leave to take a job in another city? Why couldn’t God be glorified by you staying where you are? Circular huh?
[Mark_Smith]Well, “Shine Jesus Shine” is a fine song IMHO. Always liked it. If you don’t, so be it.
The point is if you don’t like it and songs like it, and that is all they sing there, move on.
And if you don’t think that is ok, why is it ok to leave to take a job in another city? Why couldn’t God be glorified by you staying where you are? Circular huh?
You’re still begging the question, Mark; does Scripture countenance our splitting on issues like bad songs? Or is the clear evidence of 1 John an indication that leaving a church body is a more significant thing? And yes, I’d apply this at times to moving locations—I’ve generally tried to keep local unless I had a really good reason (like can’t find a good job locally) to move, for that matter. God leads you to LA or Timbuktu, more power to you, but a lot of people seem to be squandering God’s resources (moving costs money after all) and relationships by moving too often.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
I agree with Bert on this. I’ve been in a church where people left because of music. Funny thing is that we were straight-up hymn only/piano only but they were afraid of what the music might become!! Anyway, this caused other people to start questioning and caused some very real issues that certainly could have been very divisive if they were not addressed. Before it became more divisive, we spent several Sundays digging into what Scripture teaches about music. It’s amazing what Scripture solves!!!
I am not talking about splitting a church.
I am talking about walking into a church to visit while seeing what church to join, seeing they play hymns when I prefer CCM (or vice versa) and deciding to never come back because that place does not meet my desired worship style.
Or, say I am a member at a church. Next thing I know the worship service turns into a concert with “sets”, fog machines, dimmed lights, and laser light shows. Say I disagree with this style. Don’t make a big stink over it, just leave. I am not talking about causing a civil war, I am just talking about leaving. To be clear this could be the other way. Say I like CCM but the church I have attended is hymn only. Maybe I tire of that style. I am free to leave in a polite manner.
The original article (as well as Bert and perhaps Ricky) equate leaving a local church with causing a rift, or rejecting the body of Christ. Might I say that is hogwash.
Believers have the liberty to leave any church. There is no grand inquisitor who will string you up on the rack for trying to leave, either literally or figuratively with articles decrying you for exercising your freedom in Christ.
Discussion