3 Bad Reasons to Leave Your Church

[Darrell Post]

Does it really violate someone’s conscience if they leave their drum-set home?

Why single-out drums? Why not violins? Or banjoes (if anyone here uses them in services)? =)

Mind you, my church has two professional violinists among the flock. Both have won major (even national) awards. Both have played/play with major symphony orchestras. One has soloed at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. As much as I love, love, love hearing their extraordinary skill, I’m glad that they share the platform with other musicians & instruments.

“Darrell, you’re kind of drIving the discussion into a music debate.”

Well, correct me if I am wrong, but the linked article had three points, and one of those three points was about a debate over music and whether or not someone should leave a church over it, so I don’t think I took a linked topic and ran some other direction with it. One of my points is that music is such a debate in the church because its usage is out of balance compared to what NT writers emphasized should dominate the time when the church is assembled. My contention is that if we mirrored the emphasis of the NT church, and had just a couple of songs at the beginning, and maybe one at the end before we went out, that most wouldn’t bother to drag in their drum sets, tubas, cellos, violins, harps and so on. And with all that gone, the debate would largely disappear too, more time would be spent on prayer, preaching, Scripture and fellowship, and the church would be much healthier for it. And for what its worth, I don’t mind “In Christ Alone” at all, except that my church sings it so frequently, its kind of worn out.

[Larry Nelson]

Darrell Post wrote:

Does it really violate someone’s conscience if they leave their drum-set home?

Why single-out drums? Why not violins? Or banjoes (if anyone here uses them in services)?

Mind you, my church has two professional violinists among the flock. Both have won major (even national) awards. Both have played/play with major symphony orchestras. One has soloed at the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C. As much as I love, love, love hearing their extraordinary skill, I’m glad that they share the platform with other musicians & instruments.

Larry, drums are the easy target to mention for the point I was making. But I actually like the sound of a banjo. In my experience of listening to music, quality has more to do with the artist than it does the instrument. But that is an entirely different discussion.

Darrell, what instruments are appropriate for you in corporate worship?

Why do you say “drag in their…[musical instrument] “? Why use that language? I don’t understand the picture you are painting…I don’t see most people “dragging” in their own instruments into corporate worship, as if it was some kind of musical potluck.

[Larry Nelson]

Why single-out drums? Why not violins? Or banjoes (if anyone here uses them in services)?

Don’t forget the pipes, the squeezebox, and the krummhorn!

Seriously, as Joel’s comments indicate, a lot of the best music out there uses instruments which are not traditional to church music—I’m thinking especially of black gospel and some of the modern African hymnody, as well as Appalachian Gospel, etc.. If we are told to speak to one another in Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs (not just a few of them per week, AHEM), then it might follow that the right accompaniment ought to be “what you happen to have at hand”. Witness the traditions of hand clapping, stomping, and the like in church music.

Moreover, Psalm 149 tells us that we are to praise the Lord in dance—Psalm 150 tells us that we are to praise Him with Cymbals. Music with a beat is not inherently sinful, but is rather probably closer to the Old Testament example than many of us would like to believe, especially those of us of the fishbelly white variety (of which I am one, BTW).

[Greg Long]

Darrell, what instruments are appropriate for you in corporate worship?

Why do you say “drag in their…[musical instrument] “? Why use that language? I don’t understand the picture you are painting…I don’t see most people “dragging” in their own instruments into corporate worship, as if it was some kind of musical potluck.

“drag in” - meant nothing derogatory by it…just pictured some of the larger instruments in my mind, and thought that most people wouldn’t bother to go to all the work to bring them if they were only going to be performing a few songs.

Again, I have pointed out above that the NT writers offered no suggestion about music in the life of corporate worship involving instruments. That said, if instruments are going to be used, they can be either played out of balance so that a few dominate and the others are not heard, or they can be played without skill, just making noise with little beauty or value. The selection of what is helpful or not is partly based on the size and acoustics of the room. If you go to a large concert hall to hear Dvorak’s 9th symphony, you will hear about every instrument there is, including drums and brass. But the size of the hall, and the fact that the drums and brass are offset by a large strings section makes it balanced perfectly, and there is beauty. Most church sanctuaries are entirely too small for effective use of drums and brass, and the strings section would be too small, so the drums dominate, and hearers are left with a migraine headache instead of beautiful sounds. So I am not sure if I have answered your question Greg, but in my opinion it is hard to beat the sounds of 600 voices singing the glad songs of the redeemed. When it comes to instruments, I am against them, whatever individual pieces they might be, if they dominate, and squelch the sound of singing voices. If they don’t do that, then their usage is certainly optional, though not at all suggested by NT writers.

It seems to me that the problem with music isn’t so much a question of the music itself, but rather the change of focus from a more hymn-based, congregational participation format to a more praise & worship, performance based format. I know I’m generalizing these forms, but the point is that people generally don’t leave a church that is still doing whatever music they did when those people first came to the church. If someone visits a church and does not like the music (or finds it offensive or whatever), they will simply look for another church. I think the author misses the point that people leaving really has little to do with music, per se, but with the way in which a congregation is led into change, and the overall pressure to conform to whatever worship style those in leadership prefer.

[Darrell Post]

My contention is that if we mirrored the emphasis of the NT church, and had just a couple of songs at the beginning, and maybe one at the end before we went out, that most wouldn’t bother to drag in their drum sets, tubas, cellos, violins, harps and so on. And with all that gone, the debate would largely disappear too, more time would be spent on prayer, preaching, Scripture and fellowship, and the church would be much healthier for it. And for what its worth, I don’t mind “In Christ Alone” at all, except that my church sings it so frequently, its kind of worn out.

And so, is this belief that you have about music something that should propel you out of one church and into another? And that is what the guy is trying to say: maybe yes it should, maybe no it should not.

[pvawter]

It seems to me that the problem with music isn’t so much a question of the music itself, but rather the change of focus from a more hymn-based, congregational participation format to a more praise & worship, performance based format. I know I’m generalizing these forms, but the point is that people generally don’t leave a church that is still doing whatever music they did when those people first came to the church. If someone visits a church and does not like the music (or finds it offensive or whatever), they will simply look for another church. I think the author misses the point that people leaving really has little to do with music, per se, but with the way in which a congregation is led into change, and the overall pressure to conform to whatever worship style those in leadership prefer.

Interesting…..growing up in a more traditional baptist church where my father was the minister of music, I always viewed the hymn-based congregational singing along with a choir anthem, offertory, and special music before the message as much, much more performance based than praise and worship format where the people are paying more attention to the words on the screen than the musicians. Interesting…..

[Joel Shaffer]

“So I am sorry if I am not sympathetic to the view that one group of believers in a church has the right to trample the consciences of other believers in a church with their demands to do whatever they want with instruments and call it worship music.”

To reverse your statement, do you and other like-minded believers have the right to trample the consciences of other believers in a church with your demands to only do hymns or music without much instrumentation?

Chip, that’s because no one can honestly claim Amazing Grace, or A Mighty Fortress is Our God, or The Solid Rock violates their conscience.

I have read on SI several posters make fun of several songs like In the Garden. Come to think of it, several have claimed that some gospel songs have bad theology with respect to salvation, so I guess that is a conscience issue.

It is different though with hits like God’s Great Dance Floor by Mega CCM Super Hero Chris Tomlin.

Or, not going that far MANY churches that do CCM worship go all out, turn the lights down, fire up the fog machine, ball lights synched to the music trac, etc…That makes some people feel like Israel/Judah going to the high places claiming to worship God but doing like they were worshiping Ashtoreth.

AUGUSTINE “musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship.” (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

ERASMUS “We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones.” (Erasmus, Commentary on I Cor. 14:19)

LUTHER “The organ in the worship Is the insignia of Baal…” Martin Luther, Mcclintock & Strong’s Encyclopedia Volume VI, page 762)

POSEY “For years the Baptists fought the introduction of instrumental music into the churches…Installation of the organ brought serious difficulties in many churches” (Wm. B. Posey, Baptist, The Baptist Church In The Lower Mississippi Valley).

SPURGEON “Praise the Lord with the harp. Israel was at school, and used childish things to help her to learn; but in these days when Jesus gives us spiritual food, one can make melody without strings and pipes. We do not need them. They would hinder rather than help our praise. Sing unto him. This is the sweetest and best music. No instrument like the human voice.” (Commentary on Psalms 42:4)

WESLEY ‘I have no objection to instruments of music in our worship, provided they are neither seen nor heard.” (John Wesley, founder of Methodism, quoted in Adam Clarke’s Commentary, Vol. 4, p. 685)

FRANKLIN “Instrumental music is permissible for a church under the following conditions: 1. When a church never had or has lost the Spirit of Christ. 2. If a church has a preacher who never had or has lost the Spirit of Christ, who has become a dry, prosing and lifeless preacher. 3. If a church only intends being a fashionable society, a mere place of amusements and secular entertainment and abandoning the idea of religion and worship. 4. If a church has within it a large number of dishonest and corrupt men. 5. If a church has given up all idea of trying to convert the world.” (Ben Franklin, editor of American Christian Review, 1860.)

And much, much more…

http://www.bible.ca/H-music.htm

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Who’s with me? Guitars & drums will be out, but so will organs, pianos, violins, and everything else! =)

It should be noted that hymns were at first incredibly controversial among the Puritans and Separatists because of the Regulative Principle—fairly close to where I’m guessing Darrell is coming from FWIW—and the fact that the Scriptures had Psalms but not hymns. It was only fairly late that non-Lutheran Protestants started singing hymns not derived directly from the pages of Scripture. Even then, there was tremendous debate over which hymns are appropriate and which are not—I have Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, and generic evangelical hymnals, and suffice it to say that the selection of hymns is very different. Larry is right to point out that most hymns are forgotten because they are forgettable, but there is yet another reason that Presbyterian hymnals lack a lot of the 8000 or so hymns that John and Charles Wesley are said to have written.

(sorry, Larry, you forgot a zero! ) :^)

Regarding questions over drums, dancing, bagpipes, and accordions, though, my take is that there is a little bit of genuine conviction there, but there is also a very real need for Christians to grow up about the matter. Drums are used for everything from rap and heavy metal bands to symphony orchestras, and anyone who has a “crisis of conscience” about drums in church needs to have this pointed out to them. They are instruments, not meat or wine that has been sacrificed to idols. Same thing with the squeezebox, used by everyone from William Booth to Frankie and Weird Al Yankovic.

Really, the debate needs to move beyond genre and instrumentation to real considerations like the effectiveness of the tune and poetry used. And we need to have some grace in this matter as well. While certainly there are plenty of musicians who lack skill—I’m talking all those organists who play Wagner’s wedding march with only their right hand now!—there are a lot of vocalists who couldn’t carry a tune if you gave them a bucket to put it in, either.

[Mark_Smith]

That makes some people feel like Israel/Judah going to the high places claiming to worship God but doing like they were worshiping Ashtoreth.

Therein lies the problem though…unfortunately most Christians use their “feelings” as their guide rather than Scripture. Then the other side is told to bow to the others will in the sake of unity because their “conscience” (actually feelings, not conscience at all) are being violated. This has happened throughout the history of music and is still happening today.

[Bert Perry]

Really, the debate needs to move beyond genre and instrumentation to real considerations like the effectiveness of the tune and poetry used. And we need to have some grace in this matter as well.

I agree wholeheartedly but believe we should move it back one step further to the underlying guide of Scripture, which is the basis of what you are suggesting. I fully believe that Scriptural teaching on music (exegesis, not eisegesis!) makes these music issues go away and creates the grace that you alluded to.