Why are Americans confused about Obama's religion?
I obviously cannot prove this, but it strikes me that a new scandal breaks out for Obama each time an older scandal starts to reach critical mass. It is almost as if he’s figured out that because 34 Democratic Senators and the media are in his corner, all he needs to do to keep what he’s got is to keep them off balance and prevent them from connecting the dots.
To do this, scandals like his college transcripts and religion are tremendously useful because he can’t be removed from office for them. The birth certificate thing as well—my hunch is that he was born in Hawaii (what kind of insane woman would fly to Kenya to have her baby?), but deliberately uses caginess about it (including the oddities Jim links about the soft copy) to generate a non-binding scandal when he needs it. Then if it ever gets wheels, he brings out the hard copy…..right after everyone has forgotten the scandal that could persuade Senator #67 he needs to go.
Again, I can’t prove this, but it simply strikes me that the guy always has a new scandal break out when another scandal starts to get legs. It is as if he’s figured out how to play a nation with a low attention span.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
This much is clear to me about Obama:
- There’s nominal Christian (A) and real, born-again Christian (B). He may be A .. but he is NOT B
- About his citizenship … at this point it really doesn’t matter to me
- What is clear …. 696 days left
This is a great example of why I have so little respect for the conservative right these days. Obama says he is a Christian. He makes Christian statements like this:
“The triumph of Palm Sunday. The humility of Jesus washing the disciples’ feet. His slow march up that hill, and the pain and the scorn and the shame of the cross. And we’re reminded that in that moment, he took on the sins of the world – past, present and future – and he extended to us that unfathomable gift of grace and salvation through his death and resurrection.”
If it was George Washington that had said this, David Barton would never let us forget it and would use it as ironclad proof that the founding fathers were indeed committed Christians. But Obama says it and it is ignored or sneered at.
Whether Obama is a true Christian or not is debatable but it is not debatable that he at least claims Christianity and is not a Muslim. But yet the conservative right led by nuts like Allen West keep suggesting he is a Muslim. That tells me that the far right loves ideology more than truth. It is despicable really.
One might get a clue what kind of Christian that Obama is by the church that he attended in Chicago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_United_Church_of_Christ
http://trinitychicago.org/statement-of-faith/
Although the core of their faith affirms the gospel, the church is entrenched in Black liberation theology and other certain aspects of liberalism.
GregH, I understand your frustration—it always irritates me when someone claims that pork-eating, beer-drinking Obama is a Muslim—but keep in mind that the true test of faith is how it works out per the book of James, no? All politicians make public pronouncements for religious holidays they do not celebrate, so we really cannot assume that any public pronouncement indicates genuine faith. Not for Obama, not for Washington, not for Reagan, not for whoever.
In the case of Mr. Obama, Joel links a couple of good hints that indicate that Jim’s got a good point. Obama calls himself a Christian, but most of us in the “fundagelical” camp would call TUCC “nominal” or “liberal” in theology. Moreover, what do we make of his habit of lying, of his lawsuits to force nuns to buy contraception, and the like?
My take is that if he were in my church, we’d be walking through Matthew 18:15-19 due to that. Hence I agree with Jim that our President is most likely a nominal or backsliding Christian, and I’ve (as I noted above) got to wonder at times whether the various scandals in his administration are planned out better than we’d guess.
I would love to be wrong on this, of course, but if we recognize a tree by its fruit, that’s the most likely conclusions I can determine.
BTW, are you the pianist by any chance? Gotta confess I got curious and googled your name.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[GregH]This is a great example of why I have so little respect for the conservative right these days. Obama says he is a Christian. He makes Christian statements like this:
“The triumph of Palm Sunday. The humility of Jesus washing the disciples’ feet. His slow march up that hill, and the pain and the scorn and the shame of the cross. And we’re reminded that in that moment, he took on the sins of the world – past, present and future – and he extended to us that unfathomable gift of grace and salvation through his death and resurrection.”
If it was George Washington that had said this, David Barton would never let us forget it and would use it as ironclad proof that the founding fathers were indeed committed Christians. But Obama says it and it is ignored or sneered at.
Whether Obama is a true Christian or not is debatable but it is not debatable that he at least claims Christianity and is not a Muslim. But yet the conservative right led by nuts like Allen West keep suggesting he is a Muslim. That tells me that the far right loves ideology more than truth. It is despicable really.
I think you’re right about Barton. As for the rest, both ends of the spectrum in politics love ideology more than truth. But now we know from David Axlerod that President Obama blatantly lied about his opposition to same-sex marriage in a church before thousands of believers, even invoking the sacredness of marriage…which he didn’t believe at all. Repentance should be forthcoming.
By their fruits ye shall know him.
He is at best an agnostic. I don’t think he is Christian or muslim. He was a member of Jeremiah Wright’s church for political purposes. I think his name and the fact that he doesn’t concern himself what is happening in the middle east cause most folks to think he is muslim.
…..is a great example of the trouble one can get into when one forgets that history is messy and complicated. For that matter, so is our President, who cites the Crusades as if the Battle of Tours didn’t happen in….Tours, France.
But to the question, I am OK with any estimate of Obama’s faith anywhere on the spectrum between agnostic and nominal Christian. Given his behavior, I would be very surprised if he was indeed born again. Pleasantly surprised, but surprised.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[Barry L.]By their fruits ye shall know him.
He is at best an agnostic. I don’t think he is Christian or muslim. He was a member of Jeremiah Wright’s church for political purposes. I think his name and the fact that he doesn’t concern himself what is happening in the middle east cause most folks to think he is muslim.
Barry, it is very hard to prove Obama’s motive for joining Trinity Church of Christ…….that he was a member of Jeremiah Wright’s church for political purposes. Here is an old Newsweek article about his faith that explains alot and is consistent with what I see among many Black liberation theology churches in my city. http://www.newsweek.com/cover-story-barack-obamas-christian-journey-926… Because he speaks up for the poor and oppressed, many in his church and other churches throughout the Black liberation theology tradition would actually say that he is a Christian based on “by their fruits ye shall know them” because of Scripture verses like Proverbs 29:7 (The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern) and many others that speak of God heart for the poor and oppressed.
He is a liberal activist social gospel “Christan.” The problem with this stripe of Christian is what they add to the gospel (Galatians 1:6-9) Instead of our good works (such as loving your neighbor/ responding to the needs of the poor) as a vital implication of the gospel, Obama and others within this tradition have made good works as part of the gospel or the gospel itself.
Playing the devil’s advocate here, I would like for someone to really make a case that Obama’s “fruits” do not demonstrate Christianity. Yes, he believes in abortion; he clearly thinks (like most abortion advocates) that fetuses are not human lives and it is not an issue of murder. Is it completely unrealistic for a Christian to believe that? Yes he believes in gay marriage because he believes that the government not giving gay couples certain rights such as traditional couples enjoy is discrimination. Could a Christian possibly believe that? I know many that do…
Other than that, conservatives don’t like his fiscal policies or his foreign policy, etc. I get it. But it is not like Christ was a right-winger. Right and wrong is not the same as right and left.
Furthermore, Obama probably could make a case that he has the moral high ground in many areas such as what Joel mentions in regards to the poor. You could argue that the left does seem a bit more in line with the gospel than the right wing in regards to the treatment of the poor.
I am making no statement as to whether he is a true Christian or not. I am just saying that just because he is a liberal and instituted ObamaCare does not mean he isn’t a Christian or has “bad fruit.”
….it’s the lies. Things like “no tax hikes for the middle class”, “I don’t support same sex marriage”, “if you like your doctor/insurance, you can keep him/it”. Noteworthy is that he got in office and got his measures passed primarily by…..lies. IRS Scandal, Fast & Furious, Benghazi…..all buttressed by lies.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
[GregH]Playing the devil’s advocate here, I would like for someone to really make a case that Obama’s “fruits” do not demonstrate Christianity. Yes, he believes in abortion; he clearly thinks (like most abortion advocates) that fetuses are not human lives and it is not an issue of murder. Is it completely unrealistic for a Christian to believe that? Yes he believes in gay marriage because he believes that the government not giving gay couples certain rights such as traditional couples enjoy is discrimination. Could a Christian possibly believe that? I know many that do…
Other than that, conservatives don’t like his fiscal policies or his foreign policy, etc. I get it. But it is not like Christ was a right-winger. Right and wrong is not the same as right and left.
Furthermore, Obama probably could make a case that he has the moral high ground in many areas such as what Joel mentions in regards to the poor. You could argue that the left does seem a bit more in line with the gospel than the right wing in regards to the treatment of the poor.
I am making no statement as to whether he is a true Christian or not. I am just saying that just because he is a liberal and instituted ObamaCare does not mean he isn’t a Christian or has “bad fruit.”
Greg, I don’t care if Obama is a Christian or not. I would like him to be for his sake and God’s glory but otherwise it doesn’t matter to me. That being said you said that Christ was not a “right winger”. You may be right but could you please explain how you came to that conclusion?
[josh p]GregH wrote:
Playing the devil’s advocate here, I would like for someone to really make a case that Obama’s “fruits” do not demonstrate Christianity. Yes, he believes in abortion; he clearly thinks (like most abortion advocates) that fetuses are not human lives and it is not an issue of murder. Is it completely unrealistic for a Christian to believe that? Yes he believes in gay marriage because he believes that the government not giving gay couples certain rights such as traditional couples enjoy is discrimination. Could a Christian possibly believe that? I know many that do…
Other than that, conservatives don’t like his fiscal policies or his foreign policy, etc. I get it. But it is not like Christ was a right-winger. Right and wrong is not the same as right and left.
Furthermore, Obama probably could make a case that he has the moral high ground in many areas such as what Joel mentions in regards to the poor. You could argue that the left does seem a bit more in line with the gospel than the right wing in regards to the treatment of the poor.
I am making no statement as to whether he is a true Christian or not. I am just saying that just because he is a liberal and instituted ObamaCare does not mean he isn’t a Christian or has “bad fruit.”
Greg, I don’t care if Obama is a Christian or not. I would like him to be for his sake and God’s glory but otherwise it doesn’t matter to me. That being said you said that Christ was not a “right winger”. You may be right but could you please explain how you came to that conclusion?
It is sort of obvious isn’t it? Look at how Jesus lived and operated and tell me what he had in common with today’s right-winger? Personal property rights? Defense? Fiscal policy?
I am somehow reminded of a wiser man than I—or wiser guy than I—commenting that politics is the world’s second oldest profession, but has a lot in common with the world’s oldest, in reading the comments (mine included) surrounding Greg’s question.
That said, Romans 13 and the context of the Scriptures do suggest a lot. Secular law ought not be a gross violation of God’s, for starters, and Old and New Testament alike work against aggressive war. The King of Israel was prohibited from collecting gold or horses (= standing armies), and the New Testament tells soldiers to be content with their pay (= no plunder of conquered cities). We are told that if a man will not work, neither shall he eat—but on the flip side, we are to be generous with those who cannot support themselves. Enshrining protections for sexual immorality into law (free contraceptives, same sex mirage, prenatal infanticide) into law ought to be right out, as would be the idea that one ought to profit by plundering his neighbor.
Not a perfect fit for any political movement, but personally I think conservatives come the closest (social + economic) on this scale.
But that all is a big distraction from the question of why people are confused about the religion Mr. Obama follows. Part of it is that a huge part of our country simply doesn’t engage in politics, part of it is because Obama’s conduct (his lies and such) are not clearly that of a Christian, and I would contend that part of it maybe purposeful design on his part.
I hope he is a believer, but again, you know a tree by its fruit, and his is by and large rotten—and I’m not even talking about his policy stands. Copious lies, no charity to speak of until he gained landslide wealth through his books, and the like.
Aspiring to be a stick in the mud.
Discussion