What's a Pastor to Do?

How sad.

Some good practical stuff here.

I’ve personally seen both of the discussion-encouraging methods KB describes here work quite well. The idea of separating discussion from decision making is huge. I wish I could say I thought to do it in order to improve the quality of discussion, but at the time it was mostly motivated by the need to shorten the annual meeting. So, not every year, but a couple of times we had a budget discussion time a week before the annual meeting. In retrospect, would have been a great idea to do this with the entire agenda every year and sometimes for the quarterly and ad hoc meetings as well.

Permission to talk about it: also huge. One of the things that fuels church division the most is the conspiratorial urge. There’s a side to human nature that finds the idea of plotting an overthrow exciting. Add in some disgruntled members and you’ve soon got a righteous-sounding revolt movement going on. A great way to diffuse that early is to make all conspiracies “open” ones and part of the official decision making process. … it has a way of focusing the chatter on the real goal: making a good decision.

[James K]

How sad.

Because?

I will say this: Kevin has certainly created some of the best ideas any man could have.

James K … you are classical “naysayer”. You dis Bauder’s work without providing a workable alternative.

Jim, throughout this entire series I have offered scriptural support of my view opposed to Kevin’s.

1. Kevin has never showed where the church is to vote.

2. Kevin has never showed where the church makes any decision by a majority.

3. Kevin has never showed where the shepherds poll the sheep to find out their job.

4. Kevin has never showed where the pastors lack the authority God really did give them.

5. Kevin has never…

So diatribe after diatribe, he continues to just repeat the same points, as though that is building a case for something.

1. Jesus put the apostles in charge of the church while they were alive.

2. The scriptures perfectly represent apostolic teaching, and are now the authority we are to be under.

3. Even while the apostles were alive, the elders were to govern the church under the authority of scripture.

4. The elders (always plural) are to govern the church, taking orders from Scripture, and thus Christ.

5. The elders are the Christ-ordained decision makers within the church. The sheep have zero authority over the shepherd.

In Kevin’s world, pastors are emasculated wimps who teach what they are told to teach, congregations are the masses who rule, and rebellion is perpetuated, because the scripture does not reign in this discussion for him. So he has offered the best ideas his wisdom can come up with. I am grateful that Jesus did not leave such important matters up to us to sort out, but that we can simply follow what he has clearly stated.

The elders (always plural) are to govern the church, taking orders from Scripture, and thus Christ. The elders are the Christ-ordained decision makers within the church.

Comment: I agree and understand that elders (agree w plural) were appointed by apostolic authority (“appoint elders in every city as I commanded you” (Titus 1:5).

My question: Who appoints the elders today?

James, I have a question about a potential decision that churches might make, and I’m wondering how the final decision is made in your perspective. How does a church choose which missionaries to support? Should the members of the church have any input in that type of decision? Do they have input, but then the elders alone make the final decision regarding which missionaries to support and how much support each missionary should receive? Should the decision to drop a missionary be made by the whole church or just by the elders? Would the elders “vote” among themselves regarding which missionaries to support and by how much?

Your repeated reference to pastors who follow the model presented by KB as “emasculated wimps” (a term I believe you’ve used more than once) doesn’t help your case. I don’t believe you hold to a polity model that has the pastor as a “pseudo-macho tyrant” with “my way or the highway” as his creed.

[Jim]

The elders (always plural) are to govern the church, taking orders from Scripture, and thus Christ. The elders are the Christ-ordained decision makers within the church.

Comment: I agree and understand that elders (agree w plural) were appointed by apostolic authority (“appoint elders in every city as I commanded you” (Titus 1:5).

My question: Who appoints the elders today?

The other elders.

My church has 4 elders. If they decided to replace or appoint a new one, they would make that decision.

[Ron Bean]

Your repeated reference to pastors who follow the model presented by KB as “emasculated wimps” (a term I believe you’ve used more than once) doesn’t help your case. I don’t believe you hold to a polity model that has the pastor as a “pseudo-macho tyrant” with “my way or the highway” as his creed.

Neither the coward advocated by Kevin, nor the macho tyrant are biblical options. They both reflect sinful leadership. The irony is that KB’s entire series has been based on sinful leadership trying to solve problems created by… sinful leadership.

[Kevin Miller]

James, I have a question about a potential decision that churches might make, and I’m wondering how the final decision is made in your perspective. How does a church choose which missionaries to support? Should the members of the church have any input in that type of decision? Do they have input, but then the elders alone make the final decision regarding which missionaries to support and how much support each missionary should receive? Should the decision to drop a missionary be made by the whole church or just by the elders? Would the elders “vote” among themselves regarding which missionaries to support and by how much?

Any wise leader will always consider the advice, counsel, and encouragement of others. The idea that elders reign from Mt Olympus is as much a reflection of sin as the one who fails to actually shepherd. However, the final decision on all matters within the church fall at the feet of the elders.

I will explain how things work within my church:

The elders regularly meet with just each other and also with the church to go over the affairs of the church, the speaking schedule, the finances, maintenance, outreach ideas, sermon series, etc. At any time during the meeting or ANY OTHER TIME a person is free and welcome to bring up a matter. This can’t be stressed enough. There is a simplicity in simple obedience to Christ.

My contention throughout each of my posts is that the scripture lays at the elders feet the FINAL say in matters. If there was a contrasting view or hesitation to follow through with something, then it is tabled until all are in agreement. I will tell this anecdotally only. I was once in disagreement with all the pastors (associates as well). After much discussion, we were all able to come to another position that everyone agreed on. So who wins in that scenario? Everyone does, elders and the church. Division would have been a loss for all. Should the church be of one mind or should it not?

[James K]

Jim wrote:

The elders (always plural) are to govern the church, taking orders from Scripture, and thus Christ. The elders are the Christ-ordained decision makers within the church.

Comment: I agree and understand that elders (agree w plural) were appointed by apostolic authority (“appoint elders in every city as I commanded you” (Titus 1:5).

My question: Who appoints the elders today?

The other elders.

My church has 4 elders. If they decided to replace or appoint a new one, they would make that decision.

Is this so? Every elder has been appointed by another elder with absolute succession going back to the 1st century?

Didn’t think so! So at some juncture either an elder declared himself one or some other selection (dare I say election?) process was in place?

It honestly isn’t that hard Jim. Who does the scripture say can be an elder?

The idea that God couldn’t foresee such an issue and make sure it could be covered apart from the foolishness of man is rather silly to me. You are free to believe as you wish Jim.