Moody Bible Institute Drops Alcohol and Tobacco Ban for Employees

Arrgggh

Joel,

One of my (our) highly-esteemed professors sent his comment to me about the MBI policy change:

Post modernism is taking a devastating toll. Many are being deceived into thinking they can better serve God by accommodating the habits of the world. The changes now taking place are not for a stricter, more disciplined life-style; they are a lessening of standards. The Moody leadership could have said, “Let us be more vigilant over our souls and keep ourselves from even the garment spotted by the flesh. Let us be more diligent is separating from the habits of the world that could blemish our testimony and bring reproach on Christ; let us spend more time in prayer.” Moody began to compromise some time ago; now it has opened the floodgates. Instead of weaning affections from the world; they are inviting the world to take residence. The thinking is—fewer restrictions produce greater spirituality. But it is a falling away from old standards once imposed for strengthening godliness in an ungodly world. And so it goes. The end draws nearer, and I have to ask myself, “Am I really living in the shadow of His coming?” 2 Peter 3:16-18.

This argument presupposes all the worst things about this particular situation at Moody and then goes off on that misrepresentation like we’re in some kind of childhood T-ball league. I am not someone who drinks and I do not advocate drinking, but to argue that this policy change is the result of people who just want to get rid of the ‘standards’ is uncharitable at best. It is a complete disregard for Christians who do not see that position in Scripture (as we’re seeing in this thread). There is absolutely no acknowledgement of the fact that maybe the Biblical prohibition on alcohol isn’t as strong as some would like it to be…but that’s OK, because, as we all know, there is no possible biblical warrant for drinking wine or alcoholic beverages, even in moderation (and again, I write this as someone who is convinced that it is best socially, morally, and spiritually for Christians to abstain from drinking).

If you want to defend “the standards”, that’s fine. But to argue for total abstention as completely and totally Biblical without factoring in the arguments that some make from Scripture just makes us look like we don’t take exegesis seriously. To argue that it is a sign of the falling away or “the end”…Oy. If Christians drinking alcohol puts us in the ‘shadow of His coming’…Jesus would have returned some 1900+ years ago. Or would never have returned to Heaven in Acts, for that matter.

/exasperated rant

At a Baptist church I was a member at a couple years ago there was a big issue over alcohol that resulted in about 70 people leaving the church and trying to start their own church, which eventually fizzled out. This included about 4 of 6 deacons.

In all of my church going life I’ve never seen such bad behavior in a church meeting as I did from that group. They were either in favor of allowing drinking or didn’t like how the pastor and remaining 2 deacons handled it. My pastor did not do anything wrong, but this other group for well over a year later was still causing headaches for my pastor.

The church amended to its constitution that in order to be a member you must abstain from alcohol. That was NOT a measure of someone’s spirituality, but just to say what this church wanted for its members. I wholeheartedly supported that amendment.

In my own personal study on this subject I feel that while the Bible does not say “Thou shalt not” regarding alcohol, it comes Extremely close. I know many will disagree with me, even vehemently, but I think for any Christian who gives honest study to this subject would have to come to a similar conclusion. The Bible both in direct communication regarding alcohol and in teaching regarding general behavior and attitudes for a believer is very, very clear drinking alcohol is Not a good thing. Again, I know some here will disagree.

Regarding Moody’s change in policy, I disagree with it.

Jim,

I am certainly aware of the scholarship on the issue. I have written a lengthy paper on the issue available on our church website fbctroy.org. I just spoke on the phone with a professor from Central. They do have a written policy for students and faculty requiring abstinence regarding alcohol and tobacco. In fact it was updated recently. To my knowledge all the fundamental seminaries and colleges have been consistent on this issue as well as many conservative evangelical schools. The SBC has had a consistent 120 year track record of opposing the recreational use of alcohol. Al Mohler, John Piper, John MacArthur all argue against the recreational use of alcohol. I am not certain what the policy is at Southern or Masters, however. My guess is that it is not allowed for students and faculty.

Well, Todd, you are good at parodies. But to equate soda drinks with smoking? So Coca Cola is as addictive as nicotine? What research can you actually cite to prove this?

Yes indeed, Mayor Bloomberg initiated limiting the size of soft drinks in NYC. It wasn’t even a consistent ordinance. And you are equating Bloomberg’s ordinance with the medical community’s successful efforts to eliminate smoking in public places? If you really believe that, then you know little about how changes in smoking laws came to pass.

Your statement is not true, that the world has wised up to the health problem of soft drinks, but Christians have not. First, the indications are small at this point that the world has made a real turn on this matter. Most of America laughed at Bloomberg’s efforts. Schools that have eliminated soft drinks have simply returned to standards from 40 - 50 years ago. That is nothing close to what the medical community overcame over a long process of education to eliminate or restrict smoking. Likewise, Christians are as sensitive to all of this as anyone else. But you are at least insinuating that while the secular world is consuming less sugar beverages, Christians have discovered they want more. Any statistical proof?

Moreover, your parody did not prove anything except that one can make a parody. “If you will point out one sin, I will point out another sin!” is no answer. That can go on ad infinitum. Nor does your parody free you from answering the question, what does practicing a deadly habit have to do with Christ?

So the challenge is still there and still valid. Smoking is a killer. The fact that people eat too much or drink to many sodas does not invalidate that fact. It is one thing for Christians to practice the deadly habit of smoking. Sometimes they are really trying to free themselves and find it quite difficult. I have understanding for that. But it is truly odd for Christians to argue for the rightness of it.

Todd, have you counseled many people who were trying to free themselves from smoking?

Mike Harding,

I do not drink and counsel anyone who asks me to abstain. I am not sure I am in favor of Moody’s policy change. But I agree with Jay…it is comments like the one you posted from your professor friend that make me more sympathetic to Moody. The comment only assumed the worst of Moody’s motives and also assumed they had no biblical rationale for their decision; they only wanted to loosen their standards to be conformed to the world. And to blame this on postmodernism when the abstinence movement only came around in the 19th century???

Not to be the swiss here but I really do understand both sides.

1. On the one side I understand that there is a postmodern effect on the church today that pushes the church more and more into worldliness. I fear that these kinds of vices can be either the result of or a partial cause in our loss of Christian identity, power, etc….. Moody Bible Institute isn’t just training joe and jill church - member. They are training leadership. I like the idea of those being trained towards leadership to get used to the idea that there are demands and there are limits on their freedoms if nothing esle because they are leaders and because when you are in leadership there are many freedoms we give up for the sake of the health of the body of Christ.

2. On the other side - sanctification by rules instead of the Holy Spirit is either a counterfeit gospel or a week one at best. Some of the largest religious battles Jesus fought would be with people who also would disagree with the rule removal at Moody. The letter of the law kills - so says Paul to the Corinthians. That’s true if it’s either a Mosaic Law imposed on NT believers or a moralistic denominational code laid on the backs of God’s children - many times confusing God’s children between what real righteousness is vis-a-vis pharisaical “rules-driven” righteousness. What is far better is to have people not smoking and not drinking not because it’s in someone’s handbook - but because it came by way of Holy Spirit led conviction.

Final Thought - No I would prefer Moody not to remove the restrictions however……there are plenty of people in Hell today that agreed with the notion that the more rules one keeps the better off he is in life and eternity.

Straight Ahead!

jt

Whatever position you or your local church takes on the issue, the issue that will be facing us collectively is how do we treat those who conclude differently than we do on the issue? I have already encountered one Baptist church in my general area that advocates partaking in moderation, and has even gone so far as to actively encourage it amongst the members. Is it a matter that essentially cuts off all potential for cooperation and fellowship, or not?

Greg Long,

I realize that the professor’s statement was very strong. His credentials are impeccable and he has had a 40 year track record teaching at various seminaries and colleges. Nevertheless, if you and others strongly object, that’s fine. I thought the statement revealed the potential seriousness of the issue. Greg, since you are doing grad work at Southern, do you have knowledge of their position and policy?

Greg Linscott,

Like Joel said, I didn’t support Moody prior to this policy change. I certainly don’t support it now. I think most conservative or fundamental pastors don’t drink and smoke; nor would they have members on their pastoral staff that drink or smoke. How one deals with the issue in their congregation will vary. I preach and teach on the subject occasionally. It is also mentioned in our covenant and we have a written policy in our student and faculty handbook.

I understand, Mike. Still, now the issue isn’t just with Moody…

[Marsilius]

Well, Todd, you are good at parodies. But to equate soda drinks with smoking? So Coca Cola is as addictive as nicotine? What research can you actually cite to prove this?

Yes indeed, Mayor Bloomberg initiated limiting the size of soft drinks in NYC. It wasn’t even a consistent ordinance. And you are equating Bloomberg’s ordinance with the medical community’s successful efforts to eliminate smoking in public places? If you really believe that, then you know little about how changes in smoking laws came to pass.

Your statement is not true, that the world has wised up to the health problem of soft drinks, but Christians have not. First, the indications are small at this point that the world has made a real turn on this matter. Most of America laughed at Bloomberg’s efforts. Schools that have eliminated soft drinks have simply returned to standards from 40 - 50 years ago. That is nothing close to what the medical community overcame over a long process of education to eliminate or restrict smoking. Likewise, Christians are as sensitive to all of this as anyone else. But you are at least insinuating that while the secular world is consuming less sugar beverages, Christians have discovered they want more. Any statistical proof?

Moreover, your parody did not prove anything except that one can make a parody. “If you will point out one sin, I will point out another sin!” is no answer. That can go on ad infinitum. Nor does your parody free you from answering the question, what does practicing a deadly habit have to do with Christ?

So the challenge is still there and still valid. Smoking is a killer. The fact that people eat too much or drink to many sodas does not invalidate that fact. It is one thing for Christians to practice the deadly habit of smoking. Sometimes they are really trying to free themselves and find it quite difficult. I have understanding for that. But it is truly odd for Christians to argue for the rightness of it.

Todd, have you counseled many people who were trying to free themselves from smoking?

My point was simple. The only reason that smoking is “wrong” is because it is harmful to the “temple.” Since that is the case, why don’t we take a similar position on soda?

As for counseling, I would counsel someone to avoid smoking because it can be very harmful to their health. I was actually instrumental in helping one of my coworkers quit smoking. But I do not think smoking is necessarily any worse than drinking excessive amounts of soda in a moral sense. I think its health effects are more immediate and unwise for any human being…that doesn’t make it a moral issue, in my opinion.

I do not want my employer telling me whether or not I can drink soda…I don’t want them regulating my smoking either…fair enough?

[mmartin] I know many will disagree with me, even vehemently, but I think for any Christian who gives honest study to this subject would have to come to a similar conclusion.

I don’t know if this is a vehement response or not, but you have made an absolutely ridiculous statement here (that is as charitably as I could word it in good conscience). Everyone who disagrees with you is either disobedient to what they know scripture teaches or else ignorant? At this point, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were typing quickly trying to make your point, and your statement doesn’t really express what you intended to say. I will wait for your retraction.

[mmartin] The Bible both in direct communication regarding alcohol and in teaching regarding general behavior and attitudes for a believer is very, very clear drinking alcohol is Not a good thing. Again, I know some here will disagree.

No retraction.

If you agree with me, fine. If you disagree with me, fine as well.

Mmartin, just curious how you deal with passages like Deut 14:26?

[Chip Van Emmerik]

[mmartin] I know many will disagree with me, even vehemently, but I think for any Christian who gives honest study to this subject would have to come to a similar conclusion.

I don’t know if this is a vehement response or not, but you have made an absolutely ridiculous statement here (that is as charitably as I could word it in good conscience). Everyone who disagrees with you is either disobedient to what they know scripture teaches or else ignorant? At this point, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were typing quickly trying to make your point, and your statement doesn’t really express what you intended to say. I will wait for your retraction.

[mmartin] No retraction.

If you agree with me, fine. If you disagree with me, fine as well.

This is one of the most arrogant statements I have ever seen posted here on SI then.

Let’s just move on.